KATY MILKMAN: Imagine there is some chore that you are struggling to motivate yourself to pursue. For me, when I started doing this, it was exercising regularly. I was really dreading that but knew I needed to do it. It was important for my mental health and beneficial in the long run, and it felt great afterward. It’s just that at the end of a long day, it’s not where I wanted to be.

JEFF BERMAN: Katy Milkman is an expert on change, but even she has trouble sticking with good habits sometimes. That’s when she puts her social science toolset to work.

MILKMAN: I was kind of an audiobook addict. I really enjoyed digging into novels that were lowbrow and not the best use of my time. So I engineered a solution for myself, and others have told me they’ve done the same: I only allowed myself to enjoy these temptations I craved — these audiobooks — while at the gym. That was my rule, and it transformed my experience.

Suddenly, I started looking forward to going to the gym to find out what was happening to my favorite characters. The basic idea is called temptation bundling. It can be applied to many things in life. Anytime there’s a chore you’re dreading and a temptation you might feel guilty about indulging in, if you combine those two and only allow yourself access to the temptation when doing the chore, it changes the experience of the chore and alters the equation in terms of our impulsivity so that you look forward to doing that thing you’d otherwise dread.

BERMAN: Bundling is just one of the tools for creating lasting change that Katy Milkman shares on this week’s episode. We’re kicking off 2025 with science-based approaches to making sure your New Year’s resolutions stick.

[THEME MUSIC]

I’m Jeff Berman, your host. If you’re listening to Masters of Scale, it’s a good bet you have big goals for 2025 — personal, professional, organizational. But you also know that change is hard. That’s why we’ve asked Katy Milkman to join us. She’s the author of the best-selling book “How to Change” and the co-founder of the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at the Wharton School. In this conversation, Katy offers a brilliant distillation of the most effective ways to approach change in our lives and organizations.

Katy, welcome to Masters of Scale.

MILKMAN: Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here.

How Katy Milkman became a behavioral scientist

BERMAN: We’re thrilled to have you. Katy, some young people grow up dreaming of being professional athletes, on stage, or being firefighters or superheroes. You became a behavioral scientist. When did that become a career dream for you?

MILKMAN: Not when I was growing up. In fact, my most common answer was that I wanted to be a brain surgeon, which I had no actual aspiration to be. I think I just liked that it sounded impressive, and it made jaws drop, and I got the feedback “Wow.”

It still sounds impressive. And P.S., I don’t like the sight of blood, and I get nervous in intense situations. I’d be a terrible brain surgeon. So thank goodness I found another calling.

I didn’t even learn this was a field or a possible path until I was a Ph.D. student, which is late in one’s trajectory in academia. I got a Ph.D. in computer science and business, thinking that this wacky thing called the internet seemed to be taking off, and maybe learning about that and how it would affect our choices and the organizations we worked in could be interesting.

During a required microeconomics sequence, I was introduced to the work of folks like Daniel Kahneman, a founder of the field and author of “Thinking, Fast and Slow.” Very sadly, he passed in early 2024.

Daniel founded behavioral economics, and essentially, behavioral science is a part of it. It’s a field focusing on the ways people make mistakes, even when trying to be rational. Specifically, it focuses on the systematic and predictable mistakes we make with decisions — things like our tendency to be impulsive, our pain from losses outweighing gains, and avoiding losses that appear irrational.

We do funny things when evaluating probabilities. I was fascinated by this field and decided that’s what I wanted to do with the rest of my life.

BERMAN: Were you more fascinated for yourself in terms of decision-making and mistakes, or more in terms of the effect you could have on others by entering this field?

MILKMAN: Initially, I was drawn to the truth of it. There was an element of “me-search” as opposed to just research; I saw myself in the models and research findings I was reading — which I’d never encountered before in social science coursework.

I ended up being an engineer as an undergrad because economics didn’t make sense to me. I just thought, “Why would you think people are perfectly rational decision-making agents and model the economy and their decisions that way? This is absurd. Have you met me? Have you met my roommates?”

I was initially turned off by social sciences, but when I understood there was a field trying to grasp our imperfections, I was riveted. I thought it was true and powerful to understand how people make choices. I started intrigued by human decision-making quirks.

BERMAN: I’m curious, as you delved into this field, was there an inflection point that clicked “This is for me”?

MILKMAN: Yes, absolutely. The big moment for me was as an assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania. I work at the Wharton School, the School of Business at Penn, which has a fantastic medical school.

I like talking to people from different backgrounds. Interdisciplinarity is in my blood. So I started hanging out at the medical school with people who studied medical decision-making, just to learn from them.

I was in a seminar where someone presented a pie chart showing the percentage of premature U.S. deaths due to various causes — accidents, environmental exposures, genetics. One wedge was devoted to daily decisions we make that add up — like cancer screenings, taking medications, eating healthily, avoiding cigarettes and alcohol, buckling seatbelts.

This pie chart blew my mind and changed my life because it showed 40% of premature deaths are due to behaviors we could change. I was amazed by the magnitude of our daily decisions on our longevity. It changed my research trajectory because I realized I could use this science to impact critical problems, like prolonging lives.

The power and pitfalls of fresh starts

BERMAN: And what I love is it puts you in a position to save more lives than you could as a brain surgeon. Considering the scale that over 40% of deaths are due to daily choices, and you help understand better decisions and nudge us toward them, it’s an extraordinary impact on the world.

This episode is releasing in January, and most set resolutions for the year. For some, it’s framed as a fresh start. Can you talk about what a fresh start is to you, and what’s effective to make intentions stick?

MILKMAN: I’m glad you brought up fresh starts. I’ve studied this with Hengchen Dai at UCLA and Jason Riis at Wharton.

Our research shows this phenomenon drives not only New Year’s resolutions but our tendency to set more goals at the start of weeks, after birthdays, at month’s start, following holidays associated with beginnings; moments that feel like chapter breaks give a sense of turning the page and awaiting a clean slate.

January 1 is the biggest fresh start. It’s when 40% of Americans set resolutions. Yet, there’s no real change — January 1 is no different from December 31. But in our minds, these shifts represent new periods, separating us from who we were.

A problem with fresh starts is they give only a temporary motivation boost. They’re great for one-and-done actions, like setting up a 401(k) or signing up for cancer screenings. Fresh start moments are great for these.

Most resolutions aren’t one-and-done. Most require effort over time, not just a single action. And fresh starts provide only temporary motivation; by February, it doesn’t feel fresh anymore.

This is why gyms are packed in January, but attendance drops. You need more than a little motivation, like science, to sustain the behavior change you start in fresh moments.

Strategies for maintaining long-term goals

BERMAN: How do we optimize changes that need sustained work, like exercise or eating healthy? How do we set ourselves up to still hit the gym in June or October, not just January?

MILKMAN: A great question. The beginning of the answer is understanding your obstacles. There’s a term for this: a premortem, rather than a postmortem.

A premortem is thinking, “If you fail, what will have obstructed you?” It sounds pessimistic but is valuable. Considering carefully what obstacles might hold you back is crucial.

Once you understand these obstacles, you can solve them using science. Big ones include impulsivity, drawing us to momentary pleasures rather than considering long-term returns.

Procrastination is driven by impulsivity, though they have slightly distinct solutions.

Laziness — I mean this positively. My Ph.D. is in computer science, where we worship laziness in algorithms. Algorithms seek shortcuts rather than searching the entire space for solutions.

The human algorithm is similar. We’re well-designed to seek the path of least resistance, developing habits to avoid overthinking. However, seeking easy ways can be a change barrier.

Confidence — if you don’t believe in achieving something, it’s hard to get there. If you don’t see yourself as someone who can run a 5k, save reliably, or climb the work ladder, it’s hard to invest the effort needed to achieve those goals.

And the final one I want to highlight, bridging from internal to external, is conformity. We’re influenced by people in our social circles, shaping beliefs about what’s possible.

Being surrounded by encouraging people who demonstrate possibilities influences us internally, affecting our beliefs and efforts. Recognizing conformity’s power and how it can hinder or help is crucial.

That’s sort of the list of key things. Different solutions depend on which obstacles your premortem suggests might be important for you.

Overcoming personal barriers to change

BERMAN: If these are the seven deadly sins preventing change, what are the most effective solutions to overcome them?

MILKMAN: First, set a goal. I’m taking that for granted. You must know what you want to achieve, then plan how to get there.

If you want to exercise more regularly, don’t just say, “I’ll join a gym and go.” That’s not a plan. A plan is detailed, with if-then statements.

Stipulate when you’ll go to the gym and for how long. For example, “Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays at 5 p.m., I’ll be at the gym for 30 minutes doing cardio on the elliptical.” That’s a plan.

Consider how you’ll get there and if you need to arrange childcare. The more detailed, the better.

Another overlooked point is finding a way to make progress pleasant. If the pursuit is miserable, you’ll quit quickly.

Contrast this with the American ethos, like Nike’s “Just Do It” mantra. We believe in pushing through, but science shows that’s a terrible strategy.

We need to make goal pursuit enjoyable. Following Mary Poppins’ advice that “a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down” improves outcomes.

BERMAN: New Year is an obvious fresh start. Are there tricks to create a fresh start mid-year, off-cycle, or anytime?

MILKMAN: New Year’s is just one. Every Monday seems powerful in our data, coming weekly. It’s a good start point.

The start of a new month also helps some people. I believe fresh starts exist because setbacks are common when pursuing goals. It’s our psychological immune system letting us be optimistic despite past setbacks.

We naturally look for the next clean slate.

Using nudges to create change

BERMAN: I want to talk about two terms in your work. I have a book by Cass Sunstein, called “Nudge.” You talk about nudges. What are they, and what are the most effective ones to generate change?

MILKMAN: I love that you brought up Cass. He’s one of my favorite people and co-authors. Cass is amazing.

Nudges motivate behavior change without changing incentives or the information you have — unlike typical policy levers like taxes. A nudge might make something psychologically attractive without making it more expensive or providing calorie counts that might update your beliefs.

Many nudges can effectively change behavior. This research is what I study.

Richard Thaler, Cass’s co-author on “Nudge,” says my research is about “snudging” — self-nudging. I’m glad I didn’t call my book Snudge; I don’t think it would have been a bestseller, but who knows. Richard is brilliant and won a Nobel Prize. Maybe his title would have been better.

We talked about making a plan — saying, “When will I do it? Where? How will I get there?” Prompted planning is a nudge.

If someone cares about you and encourages you to follow your goals, they might prompt plan formation. Another nudge example is changing defaults. A change in default is the outcome received if no other action is taken.

Consider a new computer. It has defaults like font size and icon placement. Defaults automatically choose popular options, so no need for numerous decisions before it works.

Think about snudging for better decisions with defaults. Consider pantry snacks. That’s a default. Low friction to reach for what’s there.

Do you have carrots and hummus when you get munchies? Or Doritos? Of course, if you’re desperate for Doritos, you can always get some. But creating a default to have what’s on hand be beneficial makes the easy path healthy.

BERMAN: Still ahead, I talk with Katy Milkman about how to translate these tools into ways for achieving organizational goals.

[AD BREAK]

Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this interview and more on our YouTube channel.

How to nudge your team

Are there systemic nudges leaders can put in place for their teams?

MILKMAN: Absolutely.

There are ways to nudge productivity. Setting defaults on calendars for deep work time is an example. If there’s a desired behavior, calendar invites and time blocks can promote it.

People can decline, opt-out, or schedule over it, but setting such defaults or nudges could enhance productivity.

Helping people set goals is a nudge. We researched a volunteer organization illustrating productivity nudging’s power.

We worked with Crisis Text Line, a support resource in times of need, powered by volunteer crisis counselors.

Volunteers undergo extensive training, but it’s a tough job. Not everyone fulfills their annual commitment, crucial for the organization’s success.

We knew breaking big goals into smaller, proximate pieces enhances motivation. We advised breaking down volunteer hours into weekly goals, and it worked.

This small change increased productivity by about 8% across the board. It’s called the goal gradient effect. We’re more motivated closer to goal completion.

If you have a 200-hour yearly goal, you’re not motivated until close to 200 hours. But four hours a week? You’re motivated almost immediately, seeing quick progress.

As a leader, think about the year’s goals. Break them into bite-sized components and remind people of expectations concretely on a daily or weekly basis for that goal gradient effect.

Driving change in large organizations

BERMAN: What I’ve said to my kids as they head off is, let’s win the day. It’s about micro-wins leading to macro-wins, right? It’s great advice for leaders to think about setting goals to feel like winning.

In bigger companies where I’ve held leadership roles but not top positions, the challenge is driving organizational change from below or near the top. Do you have advice for leaders trying to drive change in big organizations?

MILKMAN: Yes. It’s a different change type than what we’ve discussed. Now, we’re shifting from individuals wanting change to persuading others to change.

Persuasion is often the first challenge when leading organizations and facilitating change. Once they’ve been persuaded, they may need the same tools for success.

My favorite research on persuasion comes from Robert Cialdini, author of “Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion,” which uses evidence-based principles to avoid coercive persuasion and ethically persuade others towards a beneficial direction. I highly recommend it.

A persuasion tool I favor, which relates to internal change barriers, is pointing to peers. If told most peers are doing something, I’m more inclined.

If you already have decent adoption and are bringing along the last 40%, often saying 60% of peers already do it changes behavior. No one wants to miss out or be left behind.

BERMAN: Most large organizations are structured like a pyramid, and those near the top are often incentivized not to change. How do you nudge change above if they’re differently incentivized?

MILKMAN: The more hoops they jump through and the more thinking needed, the more resistant they are to change. Make changes smooth — one step, like one-click shopping, simplifies tasks. If someone at the top worries about a task’s challenges, suggest an easy path. You’ve planned; they sign, and you handle the rest. This simplicity persuades by reducing execution concerns.

Understanding the challenges of change

BERMAN: What change do people often find harder than expected?

MILKMAN: I mean, almost every change. With change, the expectation is typically that it’ll be easier than it is. We imagine success but not the obstacles. This is why projects, from renovations to product launches, fall behind. We anticipate smooth operations but overlook the bumps. Reminding others that setbacks are normal and that it doesn’t indicate personal deficiencies can aid by preparing them better.

BERMAN: Research shows diverse teams have stronger outcomes, but many struggle with diversity goals. Thoughts on nudging organizations towards these goals?

MILKMAN: Science used for other goals applies here. One hiring finding suggests hiring in batches aids diversity. Instead of hiring single replacements monthly, hire groups together. Set hiring makes diversity visible in a set, valuing varied training, upbringing, or experience for its benefits. Batching hires focuses on diversity’s benefits rather than treating it as invisible.

BERMAN: A quick personal story. My father smoked, and as a child, I was scared of it. I crumpled his cigarettes, leading to anger and his commitment to quit. He put the cigarette money in a jar and matched it if he relapsed. By the year’s end, we had enough money for our first New York City trip — a core memory. It showed the impact of small behavioral changes and reward systems.

MILKMAN: The power of accountability and having supportive people is amazing. Motivating your dad to make a health change highlights the importance of a partner in change. I’m touched.

BERMAN: My father just celebrated his 81st birthday. It’s likely he owes it to quitting smoking. I’m grateful for what you do and your impact on the world. Thank you for being on Masters of Scale.

MILKMAN: It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

BERMAN: If you’re listening near the year’s start, it’s a fresh start moment. Even if not, you can create one. Capitalizing on fresh start moments is key. The easiest choice is often the best. When setting new year goals, consider Katy Milkman’s strategies. The science backs their success. I’m Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening.