Hinge’s summer of love

Note: Transcripts are automatically generated from episode audio, and are not fully corrected for spelling, grammar, and formatting.

JUSTIN MCLEOD: I call this the ‘nightclub mindset’ or ‘nightclub model’ of dating apps, which is like one’s cool, and then suddenly the next one is cool. Because dating is just in the ether. People are talking about it all the time. They talk about it when they go to brunch on Sunday. It’s the number one topic of conversation. If they’re having a good experience on our app, they’re talking about it. And that gets more and more people onto our app. And I think as long as there are single people in the world, we’re going to be okay. 

BOB SAFIAN: That’s Justin McLeod, founder and CEO of the dating app, Hinge. In the spirit of summer love, I wanted to talk to Justin about the dating scene right now, which has reached an inflection point. Users of dating apps are increasingly reporting feelings of burnout, and many of the apps themselves are starting to look more and more alike. Justin shares how Hinge has managed to buck those trends, maintaining growth and cultural buzz, and also how AI is poised to send online dating in a whole new direction. He also explains how Hinge’s business model functions despite its mission as “the app to be deleted.” Whatever your current dating status, Justin offers insights about what drives human connection and even offers some expert dating advice for those who may want it. I’m Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response. 

SAFIAN: I’m Bob Safian, and I’m here with Justin McLeod, the CEO of dating app Hinge. Justin, it’s great to be here with you.

MCLEOD: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

SAFIAN: So, I wanted to start by asking you about summer love. How does dating activity change when we reach the summertime?

MCLEOD: It’s actually pretty interesting to see. There is a seasonality to dating. We have a big peak like Christmas until Valentine’s Day, and then as it starts to get warm outside, almost right around The Equinox, I think things just start to take off again. Definitely the summer of love is real. 

Copy LinkA brief history of dating apps & Hinge

SAFIAN: I am not dating. I’ve been married for a long time. I know you’re married also. But I have plenty of friends and family that use dating apps, yours and others. And I want to ask, earlier on, it seemed like each of the dating apps were very distinct, but more recently, there’s talk that they all blur together a little more, that you all sort of adapt each other’s features. What makes any dating app different? How do you think about that?

MCLEOD: Well, it might be worth a little bit of a history lesson in the realm of dating, and I’ll start in 2011 when I started Hinge. I was really trying to create something that was going to be really accessible and easy and fun for the next generation. At the time, there were dating websites like match.com and eHarmony, but no one… I was in my twenties, and no one my age used those. Or if they were using them, they weren’t talking about using them. It was not common at all to use a dating product. And then actually, a couple other apps with the swipe feature launched, and they won the game, right? Like it totally opened the market up to the next generation. But there started to be a lot of criticism. People complained that they were gamified and superficial and not really effective. if you really were looking for a relationship, if you really wanted to find someone, it was actually very, very hard. 

And so we rebooted Hinge in 2015. I let go of half of the company. We started over from scratch, and we built the dating app designed to be deleted. Instead of focusing on engagement and retention and traditional social media metrics that had allowed those earlier apps to succeed, we focused on one metric which was great dates. Are we actually getting people out on dates, and are they good? We started measuring that. I think even still to this day, we’re the only app that measures whether people are going on good dates. And we use that as our barometer as to whether we ship a new feature or we don’t. It all revolves around getting people out on good dates. That led to a whole host of innovations: Adding prompts to profiles, making profiles much deeper and richer, having people actually like a part of someone’s profile and comment on it versus just swipe people left and right. So you’re actually starting a conversation with someone — like all of these things that Hinge introduced over the next few years as we really optimize around great dates.

But yes, over time, the industry has adopted a lot of those features. What I think is interesting is that now suddenly there’s a paradigm shift happening once again with AI. And I think it’s actually, we’re going to see a lot of diversification and change and a lot of innovation and opportunity.

Copy LinkHow AI will impact Hinge

SAFIAN: Yeah, because I mean, I know Hinge made prompts famous, but now Bumble has its version, and Tinder is trying to rebrand to be less about hook-up culture and more about relationships. And it all kind of comes together. When you think about what differentiates these… And what we’ve been talking about a lot are user features. When you bring up AI, are you talking about the algorithm that matches you to someone else that that will be better? Or the way again, the way the experience will evolve because of AI?

MCLEOD: What really differentiates and the reason that I think Hinge has been successful, while we’re still growing really, really fast, and a lot of the other apps have started to stall is that while other people can sort of pick off little features here and there, it doesn’t really create… All these pieces work together in a really beautiful way. And when you don’t have all of them in there are not tuned and synced in the right way, when you’re kind of just copying and borrowing from other apps, it doesn’t come together that way. And it’s kind of like, you know, McDonald’s can offer salads but it doesn’t make them Sweetgreen. It’s a different business, right? So I think that that is why we’ve had some good success. That’s why we’re number one or number two in almost every market that we’re in. 

To your question with what AI will do, I think that there’s two major vectors. One: dating apps work for a lot of people. They’re the number one way people are meeting today. But they don’t work for everyone. A lot of people struggle to get their first match, from a match to a date, or to get from a date to a relationship. And we’ve published advice over time, and we’ve seen what works, but we haven’t been able to deliver advice and help in a really effective way. And the idea of being able to give people very personalized help building their profiles, selecting their photos, challenging them to write a better or deeper prompt — which makes a huge difference. The difference between saying ‘my ideal Sunday is brunch,’ which is very generic and doesn’t give people a lot of ins. Versus saying ‘brunch at this place, talking about this thing,’ like prodding people to go a little bit deeper and share more about themselves really helps people who maybe aren’t naturally good at online dating, which is a lot of people. 

SAFIAN: So this is like a dating coach then?

MCLEOD: I think, yeah, it’s essentially… One aspect of it I would call coaching. And then the second piece is the compatibility piece that we can pick up on much more nuanced signals. And zero people in on the right person much faster. Right now, profiles, you’re making a judgment based on just a few photos and some stats and a couple prompts. And then the signal you’re giving us is just yes or no, up or down. I like this person. I don’t like this person. The idea of being able to tell us more in your own words what you’re looking for, the ability to when we give you a recommendation, to say not just that you like or don’t like them, but what don’t you like about them? What, maybe, did you like about them? And what can we do better next time? And all of that information will allow us to create a recommendation system that I think zeros you in much, much faster on your person. So you’re not voting up and down on hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of profiles. You’re really giving specific feedback on a select few.

Copy LinkHow AI won’t impact Hinge

SAFIAN: In this vision, is my AI avatar going to be talking with someone else’s AI avatar to see how they connect with each other?

MCLEOD: Yeah, I don’t believe in that. We should talk about the things that AI can’t do as well, or shouldn’t do at least. One is to replace you in the dating process. I don’t think that they should be dating on your behalf. The whole magic is the process of dating and figuring it out for yourself with someone, and we can help get you closer, but ultimately you’re going to have to be the one to date. So that is one thing that we shouldn’t use AI for. And then I don’t even know if you want to go down this road, but this world of having AI bots as emotional companions, I think is territory we really don’t want to go down. Certainly at Hinge, but I would say as a society. 

SAFIAN: You don’t see the future of connection evolving that way? 

MCLEOD: I hope not, because relationships are not about being serviced. They’re about, it’s a two way street, and you can’t really have a two way street with an AI bot. It doesn’t have needs. You don’t have to compromise with it. You can just tell it how you want it to perform, and it performs for you. That’s not a relationship. If you believe that we solve this problem of loneliness with more screen time with AI bots, like the largest driver of loneliness, in my opinion, what has accelerated it has been that we’ve almost completely displaced in real life, quality time with other human beings with screen time over the last 20 to 25 years. The answer isn’t more screen time. I think that the answer is in real life, human connection. I think we need that. I think a part of our souls that needs something like that and to miss the whole, the joy in humans connecting, of being there for someone else, for helping someone else, for helping someone else grow, for being of service to someone else — like that is what makes us feel less lonely. Not just someone chit chatting with us about our lives.

SAFIAN: It’s interesting to hear Justin’s thoughts about where he sees the boundaries with AI. As we discussed, many dating apps have almost blurred together in the last few years. But that might reverse itself — AI could inject more variety again — although of course the boundaries might not all be the same. 

After the break, Justin explains how Hinge manages to cultivate and maintain cultural buzz, its sibling rivalry with other dating apps like Tinder, and more. Stay with us.

[AD BREAK]

Before the break, the CEO of Hinge, Justin McLeod talked about how AI might impact not just dating apps but the future of human connection. Now, Justin talks about addressing the weaknesses of today’s dating apps, from what he calls ‘the nightclub model’ to the issue of ghosting. Plus he offers some dating advice, which actually doubles as business advice. Let’s dive back in. 

Copy LinkPrioritizing users over fads

SAFIAN: There’s a cultural buzz that seems to build around certain dating apps at certain times, and it kind of shifts. And obviously, the focus very much is on Hinge right now. I think you have 20% or something of the market. How do you think about cultivating that cultural buzz, maintaining it? 

MCLEOD: I call this the ‘nightclub mindset’ or ‘nightclub model’ of dating apps, which is like one’s cool, and then suddenly the next one is cool. The marketing for us is not about gimmicks or one offs. Like I think that any entrepreneur who’s made a long journey of building a real established successful company will tell you that it’s not just one thing. It’s not this kind of moonshot or random idea. It’s a thousand little things that you have to do over time. We have to pay attention to culture and stay relevant, but it’s not about being trendy, it’s about being effective and meeting users where they are and meeting their needs. 

So our marketing mostly isn’t about trying to get attention by saying something provocative. It’s about trying to be really helpful to users. We try to actually deliver advice in data reports. We recently did a campaign called Not Frequently Asked Questions for our queer audience who has fewer dating resources than most people. And so we sourced questions from the community. We asked knowledgeable people to answer those. And then we put those up on billboards so that everyone could see and know that this dating resource is available to them. So that I think is how we stay in touch with culture. 

And then with regard to our business model, I will say that every time we’ve made the app more effective and been better at getting people off our app, the faster we grow because dating is just in the ether. People are talking about it all the time. They talk about it when they go to brunch on Sunday. It’s the number one topic of conversation. And if they’re having a good experience on our app, they’re talking about it. And that gets more and more people onto our app. And I think as long as there are single people in the world, we’re going to be okay.

SAFIAN: I think dating apps are such a fascinating business because it’s a technological tool that you use on your own. And yet the goal is to sort of meet someone who you’re going to see in real life and not spend all your time on your phone. And then if you succeed at that, the business loses the customer. Like it’s just a fascinating— 

MCLEOD: But then they become a walking ad for your business. So I think that that’s what has been our success. And the reason that we are the fastest growing app is because word of mouth growth, like that drives the vast majority. Like you talked about how you stay relevant… The marketing only does 10% of the work, but 90% of the work is the product and people going out there, using the product, meeting people and telling other people about it. Like that has— 

Copy LinkLimiting users from sending likes

SAFIAN: That word of mouth. Word of mouth is the most powerful. You recently tested limits on unanswered matches to cut down on ghosting, I guess — Your Turn limits. How did that go? 

MCLEOD: It’s actually going really well. Surprisingly well. I was actually pretty worried about it. It was a big reach to essentially limit people from sending likes. It kind of goes against, at least on the inside of the industry, like what you want. You want people sending more likes and engaging more, but the idea that you would actually stop people from sending likes, that you would reduce the number of likes, and you would reduce the number of matches seems like a bad idea. But what it does do is it turns the existing matches into dates much more often, more than enough to counter the reduction in likes and matches. So it’s looking very effective. And it goes to the larger point about moving to a world of much more quality and much less quantity. We are moving in that direction.

Copy LinkCompeting with other apps in the Match Group

SAFIAN: You’re part of Match Group which includes a bunch of dating sites: Match, Tinder, OK Cupid, Plenty of Fish… I can’t remember them all. What are the advantages of being part of a larger group like that and what are the drawbacks?

MCLEOD: Certainly especially when we got started, because we were acquired relatively early in our journey, just the learnings and know-how that you get from other apps when it comes to things that we don’t really compete against each other on is a great mechanism. The drawbacks, I mean, honestly, we operate Hinge very independently. A lot of those learnings are just kind of happening in the background — a lot of the sharing and cross pollination. People who work at Hinge or people who work at Tinder, we have a real pride around our brands and our user bases and our missions. And so I would no sooner, you know, put an ad for Tinder on Hinge than I’m sure they would for vice versa, right? And we both have a lot of awareness in the market and so that’s just not something that we really do.

SAFIAN: So there is internal competition. Like as an organization, Match Group is fine with that?

MCLEOD: I describe it as like sibling rivalry, right? It’s friendly competition, but of course we’re all in the same business together. And I think it’s healthy, frankly.

SAFIAN: Are there things you’ve learned in connecting others and connecting your customers that have impacted the way you have team members connect? Are there learnings that move across those two things?

MCLEOD: I would say there’s a common set of principles, I think about building strong relationships as one of the most fundamental, most important things in life. It’s the most important thing for our business. And I think it’s one of the most important things within our culture at Hinge. You have to tend to trust like a garden. You have to constantly be building it and putting deposits in because that is the lifeblood of a company. If you don’t have strong trust between individuals and between groups, then you have a lot of brain damage when it comes to the internal politics and maneuvering and miscommunications and confusions and finger pointings. And that happens as you become a bigger and bigger and bigger organization.

Copy LinkHighlighting success stories internally

SAFIAN: How do you stay in touch with the impact that you’re having on people who are dating in this difficult world?

MCLEOD: Yeah. We try to keep it really core. I think a lot of people start running a business, and then it becomes the growth percentages and the profit margins. And you forget what you’re really there for. And for us, we have a wrap. It’s our all-hands every two weeks. And we always close that with an in-depth success story. We get a stack of wedding invitations every week at Hinge, and my chief of staff unwraps each one and reads them and cries and then posts them on the wall outside my office. So yeah, it’s cool to see that you’re having that level of impact on people’s lives and on the world.

Copy LinkAdvice for people who are using Hinge

SAFIAN: Do you have any tips for people who are hoping to meet their date on Hinge, from an insider perspective? I mean, what are the mistakes people make as users of dating apps?

MCLEOD: Yeah, I mean truly the advice is some of the most obvious things that just many people don’t do. One is, you do have to put yourself out there. When you’re creating your profile, you’re like putting up a little bit more of a vulnerable side of yourself, putting effort into it, really sharing who you are and what’s important to you and what you want, is really important. 

And then the last thing is: giving other people a chance. I think a lot of people go through their potential matches and are looking for reasons to say no, and I think we should be looking for reasons to say yes and to be excited to explore someone else. And also not have such a narrow view that this person is either my long term partner or I’m not interested in them at all. If we treat the whole thing like a journey, which it ultimately is going to be a journey for you, and allow yourself to appreciate and enjoy the ride, I think you’ll have a much better experience.

SAFIAN: Yeah, I think people, they lose patience on one end or they’re not honest about themselves or are not honest with themselves about who they are or what they need. 

MCLEOD: Yeah that’s right. And then on that other part, like there was this study, it was an experiment that was done a long time ago. And I think this really gets to what I was saying. They had two groups of people: people who would self-described as lucky, and people who self-described as unlucky. And they each had them go through a newspaper and count how many photos were in the newspaper. And the lucky people finished in average, like four seconds. And then the unlucky people finished on average, like 20 seconds. And the difference was that on the second page, it said in really big text, ‘you can stop reading. There are X number of photos in this newspaper.’ And it’s the people who had a wide perception, who weren’t just like so narrowly focused, like running through the newspaper and like counting all the photos, but just taking in the whole experience, that ended up seizing the opportunity. And I think we have to think the same way as we go through our dating prospects. 

SAFIAN: That those opportunities are right there in front of us if we—

MCLEOD: Right. But you have such a fixed idea of what it has to look like that you miss the opportunity. You miss what’s maybe staring you right in the face.

SAFIAN: Well, Justin, this has been great. Thanks so much for doing this. 

MCLEOD: Yeah, you’re welcome. It’s really fun. 

SAFIAN: I’m fascinated by the study that Justin references — something all of us might learn from, even if we’re not in a dating context. The busier we are, in life, at work, the more likely we are to miss opportunities — opportunities that are starting us in the face. That’s why it’s important to always be making time to zoom out and analyze the broader picture.

Speaking of pictures, next Tuesday on Rapid Response, we’ll be diving into the movie business —