Music biz at a crossroads

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SOWMYA KRISHNAMURTHY: We are really at a crossroads because as it is right now, record labels are almost catalog companies. They’re just amassing money from back catalog.  Actively signing new artists, developing them, investing in them – that doesn’t seem to be the ethos. And what kind of industry, music business or otherwise, can rely on being a catalog industry? That’s essentially a nostalgia industry, something that’s looking at the past versus looking at the future. And to me, the VMAs were kind of indicative of that.

BOB SAFIAN: That’s Sowmya Krishnamurthy, a music journalist whose work has been featured from Rolling Stone to Billboard to NPR. Just hours after the conclusion of MTV’s 2025 Video Music Awards, I talked with Sowmya about the business and cultural lessons from the show and what it reveals about the state of the music industry.

Sowmya also talks about Taylor Swift, AI in music, and the latest twists in the streaming war between Spotify and Apple. There’s plenty of catchy stuff to hum along to, so let’s get to it. I’m Bob Safian and this is Rapid Response.

[THEME MUSIC]

Copy LinkReacting to the 2025 VMAs

So it is the morning after the VMAs, the MTV Video Music Awards, a key moment in the music industry calendar, broadcast on CBS for the first time, hosted by LL cool J. And what did you think?

KRISHNAMURTHY: Well, I’m going to be honest with you, I did not watch it. This shows you, I think, where we are in sort of the relevance of the MTV VMAs. I watched them on little clips on social media, which I think is very 2025. Don’t you agree?

SAFIAN: Absolutely.

KRISHNAMURTHY: We got to go back, Bob. When I was growing up, I remember so clearly from about 6:30 to 8:00, I was glued to the television on the night of the VMAs. That was the red carpet, everyone walking down, what were people wearing? Who was with who? 8:00 to 11:00 was the show. Somewhere in you would have to get dinner, because your mom would be yelling at you. And then 11:00 to 11:30 was the after show. But we watched it so voraciously because the next day at school or the water cooler, everybody was talking about it. The VMAs really were about these incredible music moments, pop culture moments. Who can forget the Brittany/Madonna kiss or Beyonce revealing she was pregnant?

But fast-forward to 2025, the MTV VMAs, first of all, being on CBS I think tells you everything you need to know about this once edgy, rebellious, cool show. Talking about music videos, which everyone kind of watches on their phone. And I, just like so many people, caught little clips, I read a lot of the recaps, but I was underwhelmed because it really just felt like it was a very safe show, a very kind of family friendly, sanitized show, and there was so many opportunities to do something interesting or something that really would push through the noise or reflect just where we are as a society.

SAFIAN: And like LL Cool J, he’s great, but it’s not exactly on the cutting edge of pop culture, but I guess that’s not what the VMAs are for anymore.

KRISHNAMURTHY: It’s so interesting. I was trying to think, okay, who is the demographic? And I would say probably about 17 to 25 is that real sweet spot. But for people like myself in the industry, we should still be tuned in. And I can say honestly, my timeline, no one was talking about it. And the only people I even saw in attendance, it was because they had clients there. You mentioned LL and the way he started the show, he essentially told people, the audience, the artists, today is going to be about the music. He didn’t say “don’t be political,” but he said, don’t be political. And I thought that was so interesting, especially given the CBS lawsuit following the Donald Trump lawsuit and that settlement. I just thought to myself, we’re in such an era now. There’s so much going on that affects young people and they’re passionate, they want to talk about it.

And the fact that a show is saying from jump, yeah, we don’t talk about that. Tonight it’s about being happy and having fun. And to me that just set the tone. It was a very pop night. It was a lot of women and pop and you had Lady Gaga and Ariana Grande and Sabrina Carpenter, all the big names came out. And like you said, this weird generational tension. You have LL Cool J, then Busta Rhymes performing, Ricky Martin getting an award, Mariah, who are all icons. But I grew up with them, and I just wonder to a seventeen-year-old now—

SAFIAN: Yeah, they’re icons from 30 years ago.

KRISHNAMURTHY: I know. Let’s not date ourselves, Bob. And I do think that it’s important to always respect the elders, respect the OGs, but is that also a reflection of the fact that the brand doesn’t know who it’s catering to? In my mind, it’s always like a room full of people just throwing ideas at a bulletin board and saying, yeah, this is what the kids are doing. And again, it’s sort of like if you try to cater to everyone, you end up catering to nobody. So I’m not sure who this show was really for. They want to get that TikTok audience. They were very much trying to speak to a lot of the Stan armies and getting them to watch and vote and be a part of it, but also those kids don’t watch television.

SAFIAN: You mentioned the sort of sanitized feel of it all. Does that reflect anything about the music industry and the music business right now? I mean is that becoming more sanitized because of this environment we’re in or is this just CBS?

KRISHNAMURTHY: I think it’s the music business. Anytime we talk about art versus commerce, it’s always that very tenuous balance. And right now commerce is winning, whether it be the fact that tech companies are really at the forefront of pushing music, record labels admittedly are not really signing unheard-of acts, wanting to develop them. It’s all about follower numbers, engagement, and clicks.

So in that realm, I think it’s really just about who advertisers like, who’s being sponsored, and who can make money. I feel the music biz is kind of in a slump, and I think one of the reasons is because artists just are afraid to take those risks. And not everyone, but by and large, we’re just in this era where everyone wants to be a brand first and an artist second.

Copy LinkHow are people consuming music now?

SAFIAN: The VMAs had a bunch of high-profile sponsors, Bacardi, Burger King, Under Armour, but I noticed that the streaming platforms were absent. Is there still a streaming war going on in music or have we just settled into a Spotify/Apple duopoly and they’re just letting things ride?

KRISHNAMURTHY: And I think there was such a missed opportunity with YouTube because that’s where people are consuming music videos for a very long time. Probably much to the chagrin of MTV and similar channels. That’s the way that music videos are consumed and shared. Some people, especially in other countries, they use YouTube as their DSP. They’re not even going to a Spotify or Apple. Oh, I want to hear that song, let me go to YouTube. And that’s the way that they’re consuming music.

SAFIAN: Now you mentioned their DSP, their digital provider for music being YouTube versus Apple, and how does TikTok play into that? It’s changed how new music breaks out. It’s kind of a new distribution network. I know it’s a puzzle a lot of industries, not just the music industry are trying to figure out how to play.

KRISHNAMURTHY: I think TikTok is very interesting because initially I think the industry really saw it as a place for music discovery. You would hear about artists going viral on TikTok and off not even one record, like a segment of a record like 10 seconds and they were getting record deals. But what has happened with TikTok as well as so many other of these social media platforms, it’s very quickly just become e-commerce. I feel everything is about buy this, buy this, buy this. And with the TikTok store, that integration is right there. And to me that has nothing to do with music. What I say about TikTok is I think the industry should just view it as a discovery platform, but by no means should that replace actually seeing an artist perform them having an actual discography before getting a record deal, being able to see them live, these things still matter.

And I think those are aspects with a lot of new artists that are missing. One cool thing I will say is TikTok often times introduces a new generation to classic records. So we all remember what happened with Fleetwood Mac and “Dreams.” I think that’s great. So I think for a lot of artists, they’re really getting second and third and fourth lives because of the music discovery aspect of TikTok. But I always tell the music business, we cannot outsource our ears to technology, technology algorithm, followers – that still doesn’t tell you, is this artist good? Is the music good? That should be a taste thing. And that in my opinion, still comes from people and the music business is so quick, whether it’s through AI or algorithms or social followings, that equates quality and it really doesn’t.

Copy LinkThe impact of AI in music

SAFIAN: Now one act that did not appear at the VMAs, The Velvet Sundown. Now The Velvet Sundown is of course an AI-generated group or music, I don’t quite know what to call it. This is a big question, but how is AI impacting the music industry? I know in Hollywood, AI is almost like a dirty secret. Directors are using it, but they’re wary of talking about it. Is that the same in music?

KRISHNAMURTHY: I think the problem with AI in the music business, it essentially enables people to just not work with human beings anymore. I can create this ideal group or band or rapper or singer, and they don’t have all those pesky little feelings and thoughts that human beings have. They don’t need to take breaks. They don’t have any political inclination, so they’re perfect for brands. It’s literally made to sell stuff. And at that time when music seems so disposable and forgettable, I just don’t feel as an industry we should be running to replace human beings.

And everything I’ve seen, whether it’s the group you mentioned or recently Rick Beato did a piece, I believe on CBS this morning that they created a female indie singer. I just thought to myself, no one thinks it’s creepy? A roomful of men creating a young woman singer. This can’t go wrong, right guys, you just know where this is going to be taken, and it’s not in a good place. And I just feel like as an industry, of course, be on top of the technology, be cognizant of it, but we should be investing in human beings or using AI to help them versus replacing them.

Copy LinkIndustry health and the dangers of relying on nostalgia

SAFIAN: I find it’s hard for me to gauge how healthy the music industry is as a business, which metrics to follow, like Billboard charts or Spotify downloads. Are there things that you pay attention to, specifically?

KRISHNAMURTHY: I pay attention to a few metrics. Absolutely looking at the Billboard charts and seeing which artists as well as which genres are represented. I also look at, especially the companies that are public when they do their quarterly calls or their annual calls. But being in the music business, I can tell you behind the scenes right now is a very dire time. Probably 90% of the people I know are unemployed right now. There have been massive layoffs over and over again at record labels, at tech companies, and it’s very jarring because on one hand you’ll see the public announcement, this label had an amazing year, banner year, we’re so happy with our artists and by the way, we’re cutting 10% of our staff or we’re cutting 30% of our staff. And to me, that is not the sign of a healthy industry. It doesn’t matter if the top 1% are doing well, if 99% are suffering and failing.

And that’s where I feel we are right now in the music business, whether it’s an artist, the top 1% are doing amazing, but talk to the other 99%, the pennies that they’re getting every month from streaming. We’re really at a crossroads, and it’s very much the future of it is uncertain because as it is right now, record labels are almost catalog companies, like they’re just amassing money from back catalog. Actively signing young artists, developing them, investing in them – that doesn’t seem to be the ethos and what kind of industry, music, business or otherwise can rely on being a catalog industry that’s essentially a nostalgia industry, something that’s looking at the past versus looking at the future. And to me, the VMAs were kind of indicative of that. And right now to me, the industry seems to be at a bit of a sand-still, and I don’t think AI or technology is going to solve this problem.

Copy LinkThe anomaly of Taylor Swift

SAFIAN: You’re talking about the 1% — I of course start thinking about Taylor Swift. The buzz over her engagement to Travis Kelce, anticipation for her new album release coming up. Does the world of Taylor dwarf everything else these days?

KRISHNAMURTHY: I think she’s somebody who is a pop superstar in an industry that doesn’t really have a lot of them. Anytime there is this success story, they like to prop it up, look how great the industry is doing. I think she’s a great case study of someone who’s been very adept at starting in one genre, pivoting into another and really being savvy about her business and how she’s operating on her level when it comes to her masters, her music, her image, it’s very curated. She’s very much in charge, which I think is great, but she’s also an anomaly. And for one, Taylor Swift, very few other artists can do what she does. My hope, always, with people like her or those in similar positions is creating a new blueprint for other artists or opening doors for other creatives because she has that power, she has that leverage.

I would love to maybe see her own label one day or publishing company, signing unsigned artists, songwriters and helping develop them. I think as she gets older, she could take on a very interesting role as an executive, and I think a lot of artists would really respect her for doing that. But I think right now it really is, she’s in album mode and we know one of her strategies is doing various versions of the same album. I just heard the Target version get announced. She’s guaranteeing herself a number one album. That’s not a secret, but to me it’s sort of, as an industry, we can’t just rely on that because it’s not a business model that can be replicated by anybody. But maybe Taylor, Beyoncé, maybe Kendrick, there’s only a handful of people who can emulate what she does. It’s so specific to her.

SAFIAN: Taylor Swift is certainly the alpha in music right now, but as Sowmya points out, the music business is all about change and nothing is guaranteed in the future. So what are the trends we all should be keeping our eyes on and what kind of impact is AI having on what we listen to? We’ll talk about that more after the break. Stay with us.

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Before the break, music journalist, and author Sowmya Krishnamurthy broke down the most impactful takeaways from Sunday’s VMAs. Now we talk about music’s cultural impact on other industries, how AI is infiltrating the airwaves, and whether any artist entrepreneurs are poised to become the next Jay-Z. Let’s dive back in. 

Copy LinkThe commercialization of hip hop

So I wanted to ask you about hip hop, which I know is one of your passions. It’s come a long way from its renegade roots. Our listeners are primarily business leaders. What do business leaders miss about hip hop and how it’s shaped consumer culture, and I guess how it’s maybe still shaping consumer culture in a way that’s not being paid attention to?

KRISHNAMURTHY: Hip hop really has shaped and influenced culture across the board from music to fashion, lifestyle, sports, the music, the slang, how people dress, how they walk, how they think. This has permeated every facet of culture unfortunately, even though hip hop is over 50 years old, so technically it’s a middle-aged man, even though it’s in that life stage, it’s still oftentimes treated as a niche art form. It’s marginalized and I think there’s a lot of historic reasons for that, racial reasons for that. It’s just still sort of, “We want to extract the cool from it, but we don’t want anything else that actually has to do with it in a meaningful way.” And I think you look at, you turn on the TV, how many commercials have Biggie in the background or Tupac’s song. Brands want that cool factor, but sometimes they don’t understand it in a meaningful way.

And just throwing a Drake song on your social media page or using hip hop in your social media content, that doesn’t mean it’s cool. And in fact, people who are fans of the culture, they live this, they can sort of spot that out pretty quickly. So I feel like the commercialization of hip hop is probably at its apex right now. A lot of companies are throwing money at artists and signing records and utilizing parts of the culture, but how many are actually reinvesting it or having a long-term investment in a meaningful way that’s up for debate.

Copy LinkHow hip hop impacts high fashion

SAFIAN: You wrote a book about hip hop’s impact on the fashion industry. New York Fashion Week is coming up. Is hip hop still impacting the fashion industry? Is it taking it forward the way it once did, or are they sort of more, I don’t know, more intertwined in a certain way?

KRISHNAMURTHY: Yeah, I think high fashion specifically is really leaning on hip hop because designers, even historically, whether it’s like a Gianni Versace or Tommy Hilfiger, they want to know what the young cool kids are doing. And especially in places like New York and LA, Miami, Tokyo, Atlanta, that’s where they want to see what are young people doing, how do they dress, how do they talk? And right now, brands are still going to hip hop. Again, I think they are more so going to what they think are the safer bets. So they are going to people who are more established. You look at someone like Pharrell who has his position at Louis Vuitton. You look at something like Chanel who recently partnered with Kendrick Lamar. So they are going to these big superstars where I think they feel like they’re going to get the guaranteed eyeballs and clicks and engagements.

But absolutely, compared to every other genre, hip hop artists are the ones sitting front row at Fashion Week. You see them all over the Met Gala. As I mentioned in my book, back in the day, it was like Little Kim and Puffy were the first rappers at the Met Gala, and now they’re everywhere because somebody like Anna Wintour knows that this is a demographic that may be vogue, may not reach organically, but you can get these artists to post something on Instagram or live stream it, and it keeps these heritage institutions young and relevant to the new generation.

SAFIAN: That relevance is so hard for these heritage businesses, and yet at the same time, it scares them, right? They want that relevance, but they’re also worried that it’s going to wash over them in some way that they can’t control.

KRISHNAMURTHY: Again, it’s all a business. So you always have to think about your corporate stakeholders, shareholders, luxury itself. Luxury fashion is very much always trying to figure out how to stay relevant. Maybe not culturally relevant, but commercially and some of these biggest brands now, they’re making more money selling say a nail polish or key chain or a lipstick at let’s say $150 or $200 than selling an outfit at $10,000 because the luxury consumers are also very much evolving. And there is that schism between sort of quiet luxury, and we don’t talk about what designers we wear, but houses, they want you to show off that logo.

In the beginning, hip hop artists and those from the culture, they wanted to wear these high fashion brands, but they either couldn’t afford it, or if they did go into those stores, they weren’t welcome. This was the rise of people like Dapper Dan who would basically create these DIY creations using a logo of let’s say a Gucci or Louis Vuitton or Fendi to make something for the hip hop generation.

Then as time went on in the nineties and the aughts, hip hop became the consumer, and now we’re in an era where hip hop is really the collaborator where artists are working with these lines. They’re the face of the line, they’re the creative directors of these lines, but I think for luxury fashion, they’re constantly trying to juggle all these balls of getting new fans, not alienating their old fans, not offending their political connections, not offending the stockholders, but I promise we’re still cool guys. We’re still cool and we’re expensive, so you should want us, and there’s that aspirational element, but don’t worry, if you want that hundred dollar key chain, we’ll sell that to you

as well. There’s a lot of things going on for these brands to stay relevant and also financially viable.

Copy LinkInside of the business ambitions of artists

SAFIAN: From a business perspective, is there a next generation of artists, entrepreneurs who should be on our radar like heirs to Jay-Z and Rihanna and so on?

KRISHNAMURTHY: It’s interesting. Had you asked me this question even two years ago, I would’ve given you a laundry list because I think specifically Rihanna and then later Selena Gomez, they created a blueprint of artists becoming hyphenates in the fashion space and the beauty space. So specifically with Fenty Beauty and Rare Beauty, which are two of the most successful artists turned beauty lines, but so many artists tried to release their version of that, and there were more flops than wins.

So I think for artists right now, I’m sure they get so many deal offerings of, hey, you should sign on to be the face of this skincare line or beauty line or liquor line. They’re constantly getting opportunities, but I would really say they need to vet these opportunities, do what makes sense for them in an organic way and what they’re ready to commit to. I think there’s nothing worse than when you see an artist becoming the face of some brand and it’s totally inorganic.

The consumer now is more savvy than oftentimes businesses give us credit for, and they can tell this person doesn’t use the skincare line, or this person has never talked about their love of tequila. All of sudden it’s a picture of them holding like an agave plant. We know you don’t drink. So this was clearly a way to get the second yacht or the fifth mortgage, and it’s all about right now, there’s a proliferation of opportunities. Everyone wants to be seen as a business person, as a founder. These are the buzzwords that people want to see. Artists want to be on the cover of Forbes more than on the cover of Rolling Stone. It is what it is. They want to be seen as business people, but to be seen as a business person, you have to know business or at least partner with people who know what they’re talking about and make a real commitment.

I think that’s why people like Jay-Z, even Kanye at his height, Puffy, Dre, all of their business extensions made sense. You wanted to buy headphones from Dr. Dre because he was supposed to have Golden Ears as a producer, you probably wouldn’t buy his tequila. But I think this is where the artists have to see what actually fits with them and what they’re willing to learn about, talk about and not just sell something for the sake of selling something.

SAFIAN: One of the ironies I find is that the artists who are the best business people in some ways, like whatever, Taylor Swift, she doesn’t want to be called a business person. She wants to be called an artist. And often when I talk to these artists and I try to get their business stories, they don’t really want to talk about them. And yet there are other artists who are scrambling to try to get a piece of being a business leader, as you say, to try to get themselves on the cover of Forbes or Fortune.

KRISHNAMURTHY: I think the hard part though, is business and any of your listeners who are actually in business or entrepreneurs, it’s not sexy. Most of the time you’re doing work behind the scenes, it’s looking at a lot of PNL sheets, doing math. These are not sexy things, and I think for a lot of artists and celebrities, they want to be the face of it, and I think that’s what they do very well. Probably more so on the marketing side and promotional side, but they probably, when it comes down to sort of brass tacks and talking about supply chain and seasonality and sourcing, they either don’t have the knowledge, they don’t want to learn the knowledge, and they’re just not comfortable talking about it. Because I think now more than ever, everyone wants to be seen as an entrepreneur, four hour work week. It’s all about being a boss.

I know girl boss is kind of antiquated now, but just being a boss. I’m not a worker. I do what I want, and that’s all great, but it comes with actually a lot of work. And there’s people who have the knowledge, people who do the thankless job, and it’s easy to be on the cover of the magazine, but what about all those people that had to work to get you there? And I think with a lot of celebrity businesses, you see their runway isn’t very long. So it’s almost like you start a company, give it that billion valuation, fingers crossed, sell it, and we never speak of it again.

Copy LinkCultural authenticity & leveraging music in the business world

SAFIAN: For businesses and brands that want to leverage the power of music, the emotion, the celebrity, do you have any advice about how to approach it? Are there brand-artist collaborations that work better than others? How should they be thinking about it?

KRISHNAMURTHY: So I would say first, have somebody in-house who actually understands culture. And if that’s not possible, actually hire genre experts, cultural experts, and actually rely on those authorities to help guide you. Because oftentimes the idea is, okay, we have a budget. We’ll just throw it at the biggest name we can. We’re going to look at their social media followers, and that’s what’s going to predicate whether we hire them that has absolutely no thought or nuance or analysis. And that’s why a lot of these collaborations just sort of fall flat. You could tell a big check was cut, the CEO got their selfie with the artist, and that’s about it. So I would say really rely on experts and also think long-term. If you want to be seen as a brand who actually is making inroads and culture, that has to be a longer-term relationship. Let’s look back at brands like Sprite.

Sprite made a long-term commitment in hip-hop. It wasn’t just, we’re going to hire Nas and AZ to do a one-off freestyle. No, no, we’re going to literally be a part of hiring artists, letting them do their thing over the course of several different campaigns versus let’s say Gap and LL Cool J, where he literally shouted out FUBU in a Gap ad, but Gap didn’t even know what FUBU was, and they let that run. So they basically gave their competition a national platform at their expense, but that shows you where somebody wasn’t thinking through it and not having these actual experts, and not just hiring them, but listening to them.

SAFIAN: Sowmya, this has been great. Thank you so much for doing it.

KRISHNAMURTHY: Thank you for having me.

SAFIAN: The music business has sometimes been derided as not really being a business, but as Sowmya explains the landscape, it’s pretty clear that there are sophisticated strategies at play. Musicians may prefer to describe themselves as artists, but no one’s going to break through like Taylor Swift without being calculated about their brand and product.

Music is inspiring on so many levels, but one of the things I find so fascinating about it, is the mix of creativity and discipline that’s necessary for success. The truth is, creativity is required in every industry. As dispassionate and analytical as C-suite executives like to appear, the real value added usually comes from the heart. I’m Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.