MICHELLE EBANKS: To take the stage of the Apollo, you are stepping inside history. It is why Bruno Mars wanted to perform on top of the marquee, why Paul McCartney, when the Beatles came in the ’60s to New York, the first place they wanted to go was the Apollo Theater. An artist could play any venue in the world, but are they all remarkable? This is where it all happened. You’re just enveloped in the architecture, what we know as popular culture today.

BOB SAFIAN: That’s Michelle Ebanks, CEO of the Apollo Theater in New York City. Michelle is navigating some of the most delicate cross-currents in American business, from straddling in-person and digital engagement to appropriately tapping into celebrity culture, to operating a historically Black institution in the midst of a DEI backlash. It’s not unfamiliar territory for Michelle, who previously headed Essence Communications and turned the Essence Festival into a global event. She is unblinking in sharing her experiences professionally and personally, from negotiating with Prince to confronting colleagues who assumed she was a diversity hire. It’s a conversation that I’ve been eager to share, so let’s get to it. I’m Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

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SAFIAN: I am Bob Safian. I’m here with Michelle Ebanks, President and CEO of the Apollo Theater, the largest African-American performing arts center in the U.S. and a Manhattan institution. Michelle, it’s great to have you with us.

EBANKS: I am very excited to be here, Bob, it really is a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Venturing into new growth opportunities for the Apollo Theater

SAFIAN: I should say to the audience, Michelle and I worked together years back. She taught me so much about how business really operates. We’ve been friends ever since. Michelle, you ran Essence Communications, turned the Essence Festival in New Orleans into a cultural happening, a booming business. You came to the Apollo Theater about 18 months ago. Can you explain what drew you to the opportunity? Because while the Apollo’s been a launching pad for performers from James Brown to Aretha Franklin to Bruno Mars, go on and on, but it hasn’t often been a growth business, so what drew you? How did this come together for you?

EBANKS: Well, I guess for starters, yes, I am drawn to growth, but I’m also drawn to those iconic institutions that you can grow. The Apollo is a global iconic institution, and so it was for me a great match. I was intrigued from the beginning, and after 18 months, I’m more excited than ever.

SAFIAN: You’ve never been wary about jumping into a difficult task. The live events industry has been under pressure in recent years, unless your name is Beyoncé or Taylor Swift, right? The slowdown impacted the Apollo, and how do you think about it operating in that industry?

EBANKS: It’s absolutely been a tough time in the field. There was a capital campaign, Apollo Rising 2.0, that was put in motion and raised $69 million. It really provided a stabilization for the Apollo and the opportunity to envision an expansion of the campus with the Apollo stages at the Victoria Theater, a few doors down from the historic main stage, and then the first full scale renovation of the historic theater itself.

SAFIAN: So you knew that there were some resources there to support, although, I mean, fundraising is constant as a non-profit, right? I’m curious how different it’s been for you raising money as a non-profit, leading a non-profit compared to the for-profit world that you’ve been in until now.

EBANKS: Bob, you know me too well, it’s almost unfair. Yes, it’s been a steep learning curve in that regard. In my prior life, it was ad sales. It was revenue generation, which was always on, and extraordinarily intense and vital. It’s the same situation here. Ultimately, it all leads to the same place, which is sharing a vision and how your stakeholders can be a partner on the journey. The clearer you can be about that storytelling, the more effective.

The Apollo Theater’s unique role in history

SAFIAN: I mean, the Apollo’s been known for a long time for elevating underrepresented voices, celebrating diverse storytelling. I mean, there was a time when Black performers weren’t allowed to perform in many venues around the city, and so the Apollo was essential. Today, when in theory anyone can get their art out via social channels or via the internet, does that make the Apollo’s role different than it used to be even a few years ago?

EBANKS: I wouldn’t say that the vision is different. How we develop opportunities with artists is different. From when the Apollo, as you mentioned, was the only stage or one of the only stages available to now, many stages are available, but there’s only one Apollo. For an artist to take the stage of the Apollo, you are stepping inside history. It is why Bruno Mars wanted to perform on top of the marquee, why Paul McCartney, when the Beatles came in the ’60s to New York, the first place they wanted to go was the Apollo Theater. It is singular. And for an artist to weave themselves into this nine-decade history is remarkable. An artist could play any venue in the world, but are they all remarkable?

Leveraging digital advancements & physical transformations

SAFIAN: It sounds like, as you talk about the Apollo, it’s a brand, it has a brand that has power, and yet maybe not all of that power has been leveraged the way it might be.

EBANKS: Is there the opportunity to do more? Absolutely. Absolutely. We have an opportunity to test new models. That’s a benefit of this expanded campus and the renovated stage. We will be a more flexible venue with retractable seating. We will be more welcoming and inviting to the street with an expanded lobby and new cafe. We will be a more state-of-the-art venue that will attract more artists to revisit what is the Apollo now. So that’s a tremendous growth opportunity. And because of the technology as well and investment, the ability for content capture at high quality, for greater opportunities for distributed content, streaming content is an opportunity for us to reach a wider audience than in the 1,500 seats alone.

SAFIAN: I can certainly see someone coming in and saying, “Hey, the world is moving to digital engagement. Entertainment is moving to streaming. That’s where we need to go.” But you don’t necessarily want to walk away from your foundation of in-person content. And so this expansion is allowing both of those pieces to be leveraged further.

EBANKS: That’s it, both, and. We can be both. When you walk into the Apollo, you feel the electricity. You feel the magic when you walk in the historic lobby, and there’s the wall of murals, and you see history before you. It is Aretha Franklin, The Temptations. You’re just enveloped in art. And not only art, but art that was the architecture of what we know as popular culture today. And you sit in the seats, and you see these are the audiences that chose Ella Fitzgerald or booed Dave Chappelle. This is where it all happened. And then to be an artist to step on that stage and rub the Tree of Hope, there’s nothing to compare to that experience. But then to have a state-of-the-art content capture and distribution is a unique growth opportunity for the Apollo.

The power of celebrity partnerships

SAFIAN: As you’re talking, I’m reminded of the way you used to talk about the Essence Festival and how it went from being a magazine’s gathering place, essentially, to this sort of must-attend experience for attendees, for advertisers, for talent. And in that journey you were so deft at leveraging celebrity to build this excitement and relevance. I’m just curious, how much you tapped that playbook for the Apollo. How important is that as an asset for the Apollo?

EBANKS: Oh, the celebrities today are as integral a part of our history and our present, from Smokey Robinson sitting on the sofa in my office watching a replay of his performance a couple of months earlier to being honored at our annual benefit. These are indeed artists. And yes, they are entrepreneurs and they’re building their wealth, their generational wealth. They’re also artists. And when an artist has an opportunity to partner with a venue, with a festival, with the Apollo, there’s a chance to really make history with their art. When we have those conversations, that’s where magic happens.

SAFIAN: There are folks listening who run brands who would love to do a better job at tapping into a popular culture and relationships with celebrity. I may not be hearing this right, but treating it too much like a commercial relationship doesn’t necessarily get you the engagement that you want?

EBANKS: We’re a mission-driven institution. Our mission is to present art that really moves humanity forward. It’s commercial because we want to do that in a financially sustainable fashion, and we believe that’s possible. One of my favorite stories was negotiating with Prince to perform at the 20th anniversary Essence Festival. Famously, Prince was very independent and did not want to work through lawyers or attorneys. So he sent a first-class ticket to my partner, Joy Prophet, and I to his home. We sat at his conference room table, and we negotiated his performance at the festival. It essentially was, “What can I do?” And I said, “Well, what would you like to do? The festival is yours, the weekend is yours.” And he said, “Well, with 500,000 people, yes, we can talk about a performance, but I would like the next Mark Zuckerberg to be brown. Can we teach our youth to code?” I said, “The festival is yours. We absolutely can.”

We had the largest hackathon for youth that year, and that’s because it was artist-led. And then it was an easy decision for him to perform at the festival and created one of the most historic memorable experiences that I enjoyed over 20 years.

Embracing discomfort as a path to growth

SAFIAN: Growing up, you were the only Black student in an all-white school. You ended up as president of your class. At Time Inc., where we worked together, you were one of only a few Black executives. Then you embraced working at Essence and now at Apollo. You could have stayed a sort of rare Black executive in largely white organizations. How much did the working environment impact your choices? How much of it was about the mission of the new place versus the challenges of the old place?

EBANKS: I look back to hear you say from my high school experience, I mean, my life has been a bit of a tennis match, where I grew up in all Black communities to the shock of integrating a private high school. And then at Condé Nast and Time Inc., then to Essence, so I’ve lunged from one direction to another, but it has only ever been looking forward and seeing an opportunity and knowing that it would transform me in the process. I’ve always been uncomfortable, and now that’s—

SAFIAN: You’re used to being uncomfortable?

EBANKS: What I enjoy. I’m used to being uncomfortable.

SAFIAN: You enjoy being uncomfortable.

EBANKS: I am. I enjoy being uncomfortable.

SAFIAN: God bless you.

Michelle is both thoughtful with her words and open about her experiences. So how has the DEI backlash impacted the Apollo Theater and how has she approached Black History Month? We’ll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.

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Before the break, the Apollo Theater’s Michelle Ebanks explained how she taps into celebrity and artists and culture to elevate a brand. Now we get into the third rail of corporate policy, DEI initiatives, plus her personal experiences in corporate America, why she sees Black History Month as just another construct, and what makes Harlem a case study for the power of global diversity. Let’s jump back in.

Navigating DEI challenges in the modern corporate landscape

One of the conversations that comes up a lot these days is this rise and fall of DEI in the corporate world. What do you feel about the DEI backlash that’s been underway?

EBANKS: It reminds me of when I first joined Essence. As an outgrowth of the civil rights movement, African-American advertising agencies were formed, separate from general market. Advertising agencies were marketers such as P&G or General Motors would bifurcate their marketing spend between general market and these African-American agencies. When I joined Essence, it was the beginning of the contraction in advertising spend on magazines because you were beginning to see digital and Facebook. And as soon as those markets started to contract, the first place to cut was the African-American agencies. Now, I would always ask the question, “Is general market, is that a proxy for white?” I just want to just be plain.

SAFIAN: Like, people of color are not part of the general market?

EBANKS: General market, is it not? It was a moment where the advertising spend just began just to disappear for Essence and Ebony and Jet because these agencies went away. And so it was a matter of educating clients, first and foremost, in the importance of reaching this cohort with extraordinary buying power that was growing, right?

SAFIAN: But you had to go around the agencies to the clients directly to educate.

EBANKS: We had to go right directly to tell the story. To understand with Essence, yes, we are Black women, but as Maya Angelou said, we are more alike than we are unalike. Just as you may have a soccer mom or a sports enthusiast or a fashion enthusiast, these are success and cultural enthusiasts that are spending a disproportionate level of their household income on consumer goods and services because they’re even more optimistic, which is a proxy for purchase behavior. So this is a cohort that is your leading demographic for buying your high-end automobile, not because they’re focused on the safety feature, because they’re focused on what it communicates to the world about how they see themselves as successful.

And so we needed to tell that story and orient clients and prioritize it organically in their operation. I think about that in this moment of DEI, and you can look legalistically, but what have we really learned about the power of diversity? Because diversity of thought, diversity of ideas, different perspectives is scientifically proven to yield better results. What is going to make America great so we don’t lose the AI race to China? I hope we don’t think that legalistically addressing DEI is going to help us get closer to what is the real competition that we need everybody engaged in and how do we make that happen.

SAFIAN: Because we need all the diverse talent and all that diverse engagement if we’re going to succeed.

EBANKS: That’s what’s true. So how do we understand what is true and then fight for what that will take and not about legalistic measures?

SAFIAN: I’m going to apologize for this question because I don’t want to be saying like, “So as a Black executive” and narrow you, but I guess what I’m curious is, in the community of people that you are engaged with, the dispute over DEI, is it like, “Yeah, whatever.” Is it like an attack that feels like you personal? Do people feel like it matters and is reflective of something larger that concerns them? Maybe there’s probably a spread of opinions on all these things, right?

EBANKS: It’s all of the above. It is at one side alarming, concerning. What you recognize at the end of the day, it is how little we understand about humanity. To me, that’s a larger concern, but it’s also the biggest opportunity. The first day I walked into Money Magazine, my first day I was announced, before you arrived, the consensus reaction, it was unspoken, but in that conference room, I felt coarse through my veins was that I was the equal opportunity hire. And three months later, Dennis Blank, who led marketing at the time, took me to lunch, and he said, “Do you remember that first day you were announced in the conference room?” And I said, “Oh, yes.” He said, “We all went back upstairs, and we laughed about you being the equal opportunity hire.” I said, “I felt it, and I knew that I had to find my way forward in spite of that.” And he said, “I’m taking you to lunch now because we were all dead wrong.”

Living Black history beyond the calendar month

SAFIAN: February is, of course, Black History Month in the midst of this DEI shift adjustment, does Black History Month mean more, mean less? How is the Apollo planning to honor Black History Month?

EBANKS: The beauty of being Black is that it’s 12 months a year. So that’s another artificial construct. This is a day-in and day-out reality. It is one every day of pride, of being a part of the culture that we’re a part of, the richness of the contribution that this community has brought to the country and to the world. And so, Black history, we’re always on. That’s just an organic part of all of our lives, and we see it as a strength, the better we’ll all be in the end.

Harlem’s cultural tapestry & the Apollo’s lasting impact

SAFIAN: So, the Apollo’s been around for decades, New York City landmark, right? Hosting amateur night every week. How would you describe what the Apollo’s impact on culture is today, and what do you hope it will be?

EBANKS: We’re not changing like the temperature here. The Apollo stands as a temple to the world about what you can accomplish over time. The future is to continue that arc. There’s nothing temporary or disposable about the Apollo. There’s a permanence here that I think is good for the world and good for humanity.

SAFIAN: And a permanence both for the global community, but also for the local community in Harlem, right? I mean, it’s a hub for Harlem.

EBANKS: Especially the local community in Harlem. The Apollo is of this soil. This is a soil that is representative of ambition from cultures, communities coming from all over the world to create Harlem, from the Dutch to Africa, South America, the Caribbean, Harlem has all of those souls, which makes Apollo possible. If that’s not the power of diversity, I don’t know what is.

SAFIAN: Well, Michelle, this was great. Thank you so much for doing it. I really appreciate it.

EBANKS: Thank you, Bob. I hope to see you soon.

SAFIAN: Michelle is a friend, and I really appreciate her willingness to open up for this audience. I also appreciate her patience for my awkwardly-framed questions. Addressing diversity in America has long been an awkward challenge. I’m struck by Michelle’s embrace of her own discomfort, her ability to see it, but not be defined by it. In a world where change is rapid and reasons for distrust and conflict seem to be everywhere, going at our own soft spots is in many ways the most valuable skill. We all have to get more comfortable being uncomfortable if we want to build a better future within our businesses, our communities, and our world at large. I’m Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.