Building the most valuable women’s sports team ever

Note: Transcripts are automatically generated from episode audio, and are not fully corrected for spelling, grammar, and formatting.

REID HOFFMAN: Hi, listeners. It’s Reid. One of the things I love about Masters of Scale is learning about business sectors I’m less familiar with — and if you know anything about me, you know that sports is one of those areas. But I know how to spot a wave. When I see valuations climbing as much as 60-fold in just four years, I pay attention. That’s what’s been happening in women’s sports, specifically. And that’s why I’m so eager for you to dive into this up-close look at an amazing story of scale rooted in women’s soccer.

JEFF BERMAN: We are at BMO Stadium for the Angel City home opener. It is a sell-out crowd. It is a gorgeous, perfect Los Angeles day. This is the single best in-venue sports experience in Los Angeles; this is as good as it gets.

A FAN: Since day one, I’ve been coming; my parents and I bought season tickets, and it’s so pro-women, you know. I love seeing the dads and daughters; I love seeing all the Hollywood, right? The hype of “Oh my gosh, I might see someone really cool” makes me feel instantly happy at every game.

JASON SUDEIKIS: My name is Jason Sudeikis. I brought my son Otis, my daughter Daisy, and my buddy Chip. All the fans that have been here and supported the team bought the season tickets from the start, and everyone who helped create this environment. I’m lucky to be here, and this is my first one.

ANOTHER FAN: I’m a soccer player myself; I play the 10, the attacking center man. I wanted to see the girls I look up to, the girls who I consider some of my mentors, and it’s just a really fun experience.

JESSICA YELLIN: It’s competitive, yes, but this is probably the nicest, cleanest, happiest sporting event I’ve ever attended. It feels like it’s a mission and a community, and the fanbase is so viral and intense that it’s just nice to be with them.

BERMAN: When this team was founded, NWSL franchises were going for just a few million dollars. We just had our first nine-figure sale, and the valuation of Angel City is starting to reach the levels we are seeing in American men’s soccer. You’ve never seen anything like this in women’s sports in America. I’m Jeff Berman, your host.

People who know me know I am a huge sports fan. So much so that I’ve worked for the National Football League and helped launch a company called TOGETHXR, focused on elevating stories about women’s sports. I’ve been incredibly fortunate to attend a massive range of ridiculously exciting sporting events, including for all of the major sports teams in Los Angeles, so I feel especially qualified to share with you that nothing compares to the atmosphere at a match for Angel City Football Club at BMO Stadium. It’s a young team with magnetic energy, and I tell everyone who visits LA that going to a game is an absolute must.

The atmosphere is no accident. It’s a key part of the team’s incredible journey to scale. Since its founding just four years ago, Angel City Football Club has become one of the fastest-growing sports franchises in American history.

In this episode, you’ll hear how it was done with two of Angel City’s founders, Kara Nortman and Julie Uhrman. Kara comes from venture capital, and she’s been key in making Los Angeles a VC hub through firms like Upfront Ventures and her new fund, Monarch Collective. Julie is a longtime executive and founder of the gaming company Ouya. Julie and Kara launched ACFC with actor and activist Natalie Portman.

It’s been said that those who dream most do most. That is absolutely the case with Kara, Julie, and Natalie. They embarked on this mission with a clear and big set of goals:

As Angel City rockets toward a $200 million valuation — far higher than any other women’s sports franchise in American history — it is a case study in using the outsider’s advantage to tap an underserved market. And how to use that fresh perspective to innovate and thrive, like a soccer team in perfect sync.

The story starts with Kara Nortman, wowed by the best players in the world.

KARA NORTMAN: In 2015, I went to the Women’s World Cup finals with my three daughters, my husband, and my parents.

GAME SOUND: Here in Vancouver, we have a repeat of the final from four years ago…

NORTMAN: We sat in the stadium, and the way I described it is, as a 39-year-old working mom of three, I was just so excited watching Carly Lloyd score.

Women’s World Cup announcer: And here they come again, the long-range effort from Lloyd, oh my goodness.

NORTMAN: And I felt 12 again; it felt joyful. I think I sort of came alive in a way sometimes we lose when we’re just trying to keep all the balls in the air.

And so what do you want to do when you have joy in America? You want to buy stuff. And I went to nine stores to buy a jersey for one of my daughters. I couldn’t find any. It started with, “why won’t anyone take my money?” Right?

BERMAN: I’m curious, how do you make the leap from that spark and that joy and that frustration about not being able to find the kit for your kid or for yourself to actually deciding you’re going to go on this adventure of building a club?

NORTMAN: It really was a process of this curiosity journey of asking people. I don’t understand. Am I the only person who wants to watch women play football more than every four years? And a lot of people said yes. Kara, you’re the only person. Everybody else just wants to watch it at the World Cup and maybe the Olympics and then not after. Instinctually, it didn’t feel right.

I would say that I had this instinct that there’s something wrong here.

BERMAN: I love Kara’s framing of a ‘curiosity journey.’ She identified a gap in the market, sparked by a personal desire. So she went out and asked questions. The people she asked did not confirm her hunch — in fact, they shut her down. But Kara struck a key balance, one that’s part of how many great ideas take shape: she kept following her instincts.

Kara discovered that two U.S. professional women’s soccer leagues had failed. The WUSA and WPS formed and then disbanded after just a few seasons. Basically, they ran out of money. In 2012, a new league started — the National Women’s Soccer League, or NWSL. US women’s soccer is known as world-class, with the U.S. Women’s National team globally dominant for decades. And those players joined NWSL teams. But the machinery to make the league feel big-time… wasn’t there. Games weren’t broadcast live on any major network or streamer. Sports media didn’t give it much attention. No major sponsors signed on.

But this all just grew the fire that was lit for Kara. She saw the lack of investment as connected to overall gaps in gender equity. This was on her mind as a member of Times Up, an organization created to help victims of sexual harassment. The Times Up Summit, in 2018, brought together women across entertainment, business, and more. It was a seminal moment for Kara.

NORTMAN: I was on stage. And at the end, I said, this is an incredible group of women here. Our job is to make this room bigger and bring new people in every day.

But while you’re here, go up to someone in another industry who you’re interested in getting to know and who you’ll probably never do business with. Give them your number and go have a meal. And if they’re weird, block them. Natalie Portman came up to me.

BERMAN: Look at you.

NORTMAN: She said, would you mind if I gave you my number and I didn’t have to think.

BERMAN: Right. That’s kind of an intelligence test.

NORTMAN: The Queen of Star Wars says, I’d like to give you my number. And anyway, she literally put her name on my phone as Natalie P. And when we finally had a meal, we talked about everything you can imagine in the world; in the last 20 minutes, we talked about soccer and she said, how can I help? And that’s when Natalie and I really built a friendship.

BERMAN: While not a lifelong fan herself, Natalie saw the power of soccer through her husband and kids — who were as likely to wear the jersey of men’s star Lionel Messi as women’s star Megan Rapinoe.

Kara’s and Natalie’s friendship grew, as did their frustration. It led them to a bold idea: Create a new team. This was in 2019 when neither Kara nor Natalie could devote themselves to this project full-time. They needed someone dedicated to the effort, someone to treat it like a startup.

And Kara knew just the person: Julie Uhrman. Their history goes back to high school when they played on rival basketball teams. And they played pickup basketball as adults, too. Here’s Julie.

JULIE UHRMAN: Kara and I aren’t the only venture and tech people in LA. It turns out there are a lot of women in our industry who grew up playing basketball, and we have a very good friend who runs the Wild Feminists Who Tech basketball league.

On August 19th of 2019, a Monday evening, there was a match. I could call everything a match now, but it’s wrong. There was a game, in basketball, it’s referred to as a game. There was a game, and—

NORTMAN: We played basketball. I was very sweaty.

UHRMAN: Yes. There were some bloody noses. I recall that when you get older, the elbows start to go everywhere, and it’s dangerous—

NORTMAN: We will not tell you who is a hack.

BERMAN: Kara was just back from her second Women’s World Cup, this time in France, where the U.S. Women’s National Team won yet again.

UHRMAN: And when we were leaving, Kara and I were walking from the court to our cars. And she said, “Julie, Natalie Portman and I are thinking about bringing a women’s football team to LA. You’re an entrepreneur. You know how to build things. Do you have any bandwidth to research this? I’ll introduce you to everybody I’ve talked to, and then you can see if there’s a there there.”

And I looked at her, and I said, “The Natalie Portman?” No, I did not say hell yes. Hell yes. It might’ve been like the third or fourth thing. First, it was like, “The Natalie Portman?” And she said yes. And I said, okay. And then I said, “Wait, there’s women’s professional soccer in the United States?”

BERMAN: Like Kara, who didn’t find out about the National Women’s Soccer League until after her first World Cup, Julie hadn’t heard of the NWSL, either.

In fact, Julie hadn’t spent much time around soccer, even though she’s a huge sports fan. Kara wanted her as part of the Angel City founding team, and she thought the way in was giving Julie a taste of the experience.

NORTMAN: I do remember that first conversation a little differently, but—

BERMAN: How so? I want to hear it, how so?

NORTMAN: I knew it was a bit of a hard sell to get somebody of Julie’s talent to want to run a nonexistent women’s soccer team, so I said to her, I was like, “Hey, we have this crazy idea. I’ve been working on it for a while, and I think it’s just about to become real. But if it becomes real, we need someone to run it. I’m going to a game with Natalie Portman. I’m going to this El Trafico game with Natalie Portman. I have some extra tickets.”

BERMAN: El Trafico is the big men’s soccer game in LA, a match between crosstown rivals The LA Galaxy and Los Angeles Football Club, or LAFC. It’s a huge draw and a lot of fun.

NORTMAN: You get Julie into a live stadium. That’s like, I just knew it was going to be a lot easier after she saw that.

UHRMAN: I’d never been to a soccer match before in my life, and I was blown away by what the LAFC fans created.

I’ve been to national championship games. I’ve watched SEC football games. Like I know what fandom looks like, and soccer fans are different.

The fandom around soccer is so special. And then again, the idea that, God, if we could build this for women’s football, we’re going to change the game.

BERMAN: This is a terrific example of landing a pitch by showing, not telling. Kara and Natalie Portman could’ve tried to sell Julie on their idea with data — that LA has a huge soccer fan base — or that ticket sales would be this big or that big. But showing her the fans’ passion and the crowd of all genders, generations, ethnicities, and races was much more powerful.

But even though the NWSL didn’t have the profile of the NBA or even the WNBA, it wasn’t like you could just snap your fingers and get a team.

Julie, Kara, and Natalie would have to raise millions of dollars upfront. And you can’t just buy your way in. Like any pro-sports league, all the NWSL owners had to agree to let the league expand to Los Angeles along with approving the ownership group. And the LA team would need local agreements — like with a stadium in which to play their games.

So Julie, you’ve been an entrepreneur and started companies, and if you’re starting a tech company, it’s a pretty straightforward process, right? You’re going to incorporate, you’re going to probably raise a little bit of money from friends and family, get going, and try to find a proof of concept as a product market fit.

If you’re starting a professional soccer team, the process is not quite that simple.

UHRMAN: Yeah, it’s very different. And the irony is that building a sports team is a lot easier than building a technology team because when most businesses are built on the Internet, everybody can be your competitor. Everybody is your competitor. So they’re not willing to open up their playbook, explain their cost of acquisition, their churn or lifetime value, or how they retain customers. That is their secret sauce. And what’s so unique about sports, in the most fundamental way, is that it’s a local business. So if I’m buying a ticket to an Angel City football match, I’m probably not buying a ticket to see the Washington Spirit play, so we can share information in a very different way and apply it to our market in a way that’s more authentic where we’re not competing.

BERMAN: Unlike her tech endeavors, Julie wasn’t creating something entirely from scratch. She was bringing an existing product to a new market. And while they are obviously competitors on the pitch, the franchise owners all benefit from a new team’s success — making the league more powerful, more popular, and more valuable. Julie wanted to start a team in a way that women’s sports had never seen before.

The first thing that I learned, which was fascinating, was that 90 percent of all sports teams don’t make money.

Because they’re toys for wealthy people, effectively.

UHRMAN: They are vanity projects. Their salary cap far exceeds whatever they could generate, in revenue from a local business, right? Ticket sales, sponsorship, merchandise, concessions.

That was really fascinating. And then I started to research: Well, how do you make money by owning sports? Because I don’t want to build a business in which I can’t make money; that’s not part of my DNA.

BERMAN: This is Kara.

NORTMAN: So many people would tell you why it didn’t work and just sort of get to the what’s the one thing you need to get right? Like, what’s the one assumption?

BERMAN: So what, what’s the one thing?

NORTMAN: Butts in seats, and in a weird way, it’s sort of super simple. Our whole model worked if you could get nine or ten thousand people to show up 12 times a year. And I’m like, this is a city of 15 million people. If you can do something entertaining that people like, if they love it and feel a part of it, they’ll come back. They’ll come back. They’ll come back.

BERMAN: But even their innovative plan for profits didn’t land with the investors they first approached.

UHRMAN: We had a lot more barriers walking in the door to begin with. First, you had three female founders who had no experience in sports. I mean, that was a huge impediment when we walked in the door. And then it wasn’t just about building a women’s football club. I was focused on wanting to build a business that makes money. If I want to change the narrative around women’s sports to say that it’s investable and there’s a growth opportunity, there’s huge value. I have to show that I’m better than 90 percent of the teams that we all take for granted.

I think it’s really important that people know that Natalie was in the room with us pitching. This was not a project in name only for celebrities, which I think a lot of celebrities get the rub for. But Natalie was really invested and involved in this from day one.

When we would talk about the experience of Angel City, Natalie would talk about how she wanted to recreate the Showtime era of the 1980 Lakers, where you were coming to a game either to see Magic Johnson or to see who Jack Nicholson brought courtside.

That was the vibe that we were going for. So we were going to invest in the experience.

We got over 99 no’s, and it was from everything from there’s 11 professional sports teams in LA, there’s the beach, there’s the mountains, women’s sports isn’t investible, women’s sport has no growth. People aren’t going to show up; is this a charity or is this a business?

NORTMAN: We had hilarious meetings with very famous people who said things like, “You should get some wealthy person’s child who’s lost in life to do this.”

UHRMAN: And then, the more reasonable no’s were like, what do you know about sports? Like, that’s fair. Like, I’ll give him to that was fair. But I think the challenge that we ran into often was that we were pitching a different type of company. We wanted to build a company where mission and capital could coexist, where we wanted to have a positive impact in the community while we were building a women’s professional team, and we were going to invest in that team. And after the 99 no’s, we had a phone call and you said, if we can’t figure this out, I don’t know how much more we can go at this.

BERMAN: If you’ve ever tried to sell anything in your life, you know how discouraging it is to hear nothing but “no” after “no” after “no.” But it can also offer the wake-up call you need. If something isn’t working, you have to be honest with yourself and your team. Maybe it’s something in the pitch. Or maybe it’s pitching to the wrong people.

After the break, Kara and Julie tell us about the pivot that turned everything around for Angel City.

We’re back with the story of Angel City Football Club on Masters of Scale. You can watch the entire interview on the Masters of Scale YouTube Channel, along with more from our full catalog.

99 investors rejected the idea of the founding trio of Kara Nortman, Julie Uhrman, and Natalie Portman. And they were faced with a decision: abandon their vision or keep at it. Julie had been pitching investors on the logic of the business plan and the broader market for women’s soccer. And it just wasn’t working.

Here’s Julie again.

UHRMAN: It was sort of that epiphany that we’re not going to the right people. We’re not going to go to the people who understand that we’re truly building a platform for equity and impact, and we’re going to use that platform to drive towards equity using sports. And then Natalie said, “Why don’t I introduce you to Eva? Like, she loves sports. She’s a fan. She’s a friend. Why don’t you pitch her?”

BERMAN: Eva is Eva Longoria. The world-famous actress and producer. It was a very different pitch to a very different investor than the team had met with before.

UHRMAN: That was an incredible pitch. So Eva was on the line with her business manager. So I do this spiel, and I talk a lot about the fact that we want to build a platform. And when I was done talking, I think the first thing she said was, I’m in.

BERMAN: Wow. You got the yes in the room.

UHRMAN: I mean, it was the first yes we got. And I said, what do you mean, why are you in?

And she goes, “I get it.” She says, “I’m a platform. I use my platform to push for social causes that I care about. And also my latest movie or television show or directorial debut. Like, I understand the power of a platform, and I think what you’re doing is incredible. I think this would be amazing for women’s sports. And if we can use sports to change the narrative and drive to equity,” she’s like, “I’m all in.”

And not only was it the first yes, but it was the largest check we got until we raised our series A.

BERMAN: By asking why she said yes, Julie unlocked a new perspective on what investors like Eva valued. She saw the social impact of the business — transforming the narrative around women’s sports as driving its market value. They’d flipped the pitch to lead with gender equity, using women’s soccer as the vehicle. That sparked momentum.

NORTMAN: So our second yes, then was from Alexis Ohanian, and he put both himself in personally and his fund.

BERMAN: He’s better known as Serena Williams’ husband, by the way.

NORTMAN: And I think actually alongside Eva coming in, Jessica Chastain and Uzo and Jennifer Garner, and Lilly Singh and Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle and Billie Jean King and Lindsey Vonn.

BERMAN: The league approved a new expansion team for Los Angeles in July 2020. And the list of investors now reads like a who’s who of female athletes and celebrities, along with luminaries from the tech world who might not be household names to everyone, but who were vital to ACFC’s early success.

UHRMAN: It was a little bit of that snowball, right? Like, it’s the first yes is the hardest. But once you can talk about why that person said yes, and then you try to find like-investors who also have a platform that understands you don’t need to sacrifice mission for capital, you can do both at the same time, and it completely changed how we went about fundraising.

NORTMAN: People and this community came together, and then we got the yes from Julie Foudy and Mia Hamm. And that was, I think, for me, the most special moment when we were building this, like our heroes. Even Julie and I spent this weekend with Brandi Chastain and Julie Foudy, and we were like, she said to me, “This is why we did it.”

You know? I mean…

UHRMAN: It was special. One of my favorite stories is about a sponsor we have. We went in there to do a pitch, and we said, hey, we’re Angel City. The man we were talking to said, “I just want to tell you something. I’m actually not a big sports fan. I don’t follow sports. I don’t really care, but I know all about Angel City because I follow Sophia Bush.”

BERMAN: Actor Sophia Bush is an investor in the team. Wow.

NORTMAN: Yeah.

UHRMAN: And that was a big game changer.

BERMAN: Angel City had investment capital. The team found a home in BMO Stadium, where the men’s team, LAFC plays. Now, they needed to build a community to fill that stadium. And that’s when Kara and Julie tapped into the understanding that sports is very much a local business.

UHRMAN: The only way to create that emotional connection from the beginning, a year and a half before we had a player or even played a game, was to go to the community and say, what is important to you? And so we included them in picking out our colors and in designing our crest. As we created our impact platform of equity, essentials, and education, it was truly about creating a relationship with our community.

BERMAN: That community included Tori Lathrop and Jaime Calderon, two members of the Angel City fan club, Rebellion 99. They’d believed for years that a team like this should exist. But they didn’t expect to be so directly involved. Here’s Tori.

TORI LATHROP: I didn’t ever think that we would have a chance to be in those meetings and give feedback directly to the people who were working on these things. Maybe you could fill out a survey or something like that. You never know where it goes, right? You’re sitting in a Zoom meeting, face-to-face, talking directly to the designers and marketing team and things like that. That was really special, I think.

This is Jaime.

JAIME CALDERON: It’s also not something that just happened during the beginning stages. They still include us now if they have ideas that they want to implement; they still really look for our buy-in. So it feels really intentional that they do that because it feels like they’re trying to build something with us — to continuously build with us.

BERMAN: This is a great example of creating a sense of co-ownership with your critical stakeholders: your customers. In collaborating on early brand assets, the first Angel City fans felt emotionally connected to the product. They were invested. And they brought organic, word-of-mouth marketing that shared the culture of the team: an inclusive community that fans could identify with and participate in beyond the pitch.

LATHROP: Myself being a queer person of color, I think, Angel City has done a fantastic job creating an atmosphere where it doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re coming from. They want you to connect with other people in the stands with you.

CALDERON: Personally, for me, when Angel City came to Los Angeles, it brought me community.

The entire week builds up to game days for me. It’s this sense of anticipation. It’s the planning. So I get my outfit ready. I head out probably seven hours before the game even starts. We have picnic blankets all around, and it’s all of our friends just hanging out with their babies, with their moms, grandparents. We get to engage with so many different people. It’s deeper than just this is our team.

BERMAN: Angel City’s core product is, of course, tied to team performance on the pitch. Winning games means more popularity, more engagement, and more fans. But building brand loyalty means intertwining the team’s identity with fans’ identities. Even if ACFC has a streak of losing games, they have to be central to fans’ lives. That’s why Angel City hosts about 250 events a year around LA, including watch parties, parades, and volunteer opportunities for local causes.

Back to Kara and Julie.

UHRMAN: How do we hold our partners accountable? If you’re going to become a sponsor of Angel City, how do we know that you share our values? Well, the answer was simple: you put your money where your mouth is. And so we developed the first of its kind, the Angel City sponsorship model, where 10 percent of our sponsorship dollars would go back into the community.

In its first season, Angel City didn’t make the playoffs. But they won the bigger game — selling out home games, and bringing more glitz, buzz, and attention to a professional women’s soccer than the U.S. had ever seen. And the league has upped its game, as well. A new broadcast deal brings live games to ESPN, CBS, Amazon Prime, and Scripps.

UHRMAN: It started by having higher expectations than anyone thought possible. We walked into our first investor pitch and we said we were going to get 10,000 fans and nobody believed us. They said you’d be lucky if you get 5,000. You’d be lucky to get 8,000.

NORTMAN: And how many did we get, Julie?

UHRMAN: We’ve sold out five games last year with 22,000 fans, an average of 20,000 fans.

So we’ve season ticket holders that break 16,500 of a 22,000 seat stadium, which is pretty incredible. So one was having really high goals. The second part was recognizing that winning didn’t just mean on the pitch. It didn’t just mean winning a game. It meant giving back to our community. It meant building attention and awareness for women’s sport. It meant driving the value of our individual players up. And then yes, ultimately winning on the pitch. In our second year, we make the playoffs; in our third year, our goal is to win the championship. We believe we can do that. Winning on the pitch helps everything, but we wanted to make sure that we weren’t defined only by winning on the pitch because then that would affect our community-building, our sense of belonging, and ultimately the revenue and value that we could drive for the club.

BERMAN: Part of what I’m hearing is, it’s a combination of the entrepreneur’s mindset of, let’s, let’s look at how it’s been done before and borrow from it where we should, but not let that constrain us. Secondly, and critically, no upper limits.

UHRMAN: Yeah.

NORTMAN: No upper limit.

BERMAN: Which, which, which is something that I don’t think we’ve seen in women’s professional sports in this country ever before.

NORTMAN: First year we went from zero to 30 million in revenue, we did 4x the revenue that we told investors we were gonna do in our first year. It was the highest revenue growth I have ever seen in any tech company.

UHRMAN: In 10 to 20 years, I want us to not only be the most valuable women’s sports team in the world, be the first billion-dollar women’s sports franchise, but be able to show meaningful impact in our community. Because we’ve never built a sports team before, we could build it the way we wanted to. And we got a lot right. But we also saw the opportunity for growth. I think the biggest area really was on the soccer side. The chemistry that the coaches need to have, the chemistry that the performance and medical team have to have, and the trust they have to have amongst each other are pretty significant.

BERMAN: At the first match of the 2024 season, ACFC faced off against the NWSL’s newest expansion club, Bay FC. And the Bay team took the win, one-nil. Kara and Julie have said they want Angel City to be a roadmap for more teams. And while Bay FC doesn’t have that Hollywood celebrity backing, they took a page from Angel City by forming a founders’ group of luminaries specific to their market — from tech, media, sports, and beyond. We caught a few moments with a Bay FC founder, two-time Olympic gold medalist in soccer, Aly Wagner.

ALY WAGNER: Angel City is one of the biggest reasons that there was, I think, motivation, urgency, and interest from our group in the Bay Area to try to pull together a women’s team. And I think what they did was they kind of set a different standard in what women’s soccer was doing from a branding perspective, the way they connected with our community, really driving the business side of sport.

Julie Uhrman was one of my greatest mentors and was standing there, always providing support, always providing the information that we needed to be able to understand what the right moves that we need to make as we stand up our, our company, as we stand up our club.

BERMAN: So Angel City is already lighting the flame for more clubs, even as it starts a new season of fierce competition. Everyone will be watching.

So appreciate you all, what you do in the world, your time, your friendship.

UHRMAN: Should we end this the way that we start every single Angel City football match?

BERMAN: Oh yeah.

UHRMAN: So we start every single Angel City match where everybody in the stadium together welcomes our players with a three-clap that ends with a grunt that is from the soul, that has so much meaning. And it’s really just our way to kick off a game.

So maybe we can end this way. Ready?

You know how this works.

BERMAN: Let’s, let’s do this!

All right. So I’ll count you down. One, two, three. HUH!! Yeah.

UHRMAN: Awesome.

BERMAN: You guys are the best. Thank you.

Coming away from this conversation, I’m struck by the power of questioning conventional wisdom. When Kara, Julie, and Natalie were told “women’s sports won’t ever sell,” they asked, “why not?” If we create a vibrant and inclusive community around a fantastic product, the people will come. Angel City shows that great things happen when you ask questions, stay relentless, and build the future you want to see.

I’m Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening.