Bracing for a possible TikTok ban

Note: Transcripts are automatically generated from episode audio, and are not fully corrected for spelling, grammar, and formatting.

CASSEY HO: The whole social media game has been, I just need to play the new game with the changing rules. And you don’t know what the game is.

Like, I know TikTok has been really fun. I know you also need to take that same energy to Instagram reels to YouTube shorts, like it’s there. 

Already, with the algorithm changing every week, there are some times when I am on TikTok and my videos will get tons of crazy views, like 25 million views, so that, you know, I get 600, 000 clicks over to a product and sell it within like a few hours.

And then there was a time when I posted a video, and I remember that video getting literally 12 views. Now this is on 3. 5 million followers. And I was like, what’s going on? 

BOB SAFIAN: Hi everyone, Bob Safian here. That’s Cassey Ho, an entrepreneur with 17 million social media followers. She runs a pair of brands, Blogilates and POPFLEX that revolve around workout videos and workout gear. I wanted to talk to a business person in the trenches with TikTok, as the US government considers banning the app. Cassey’s social media footprint goes back to 2009, and so she’s navigated through multiple shifts — the rise of new platforms, changing algorithms. She describes TikTok’s plight as just the latest twist in an ever-changing environment. Her experiences and perspective provide a window inside a core part of the economy that is essential for every business to understand. This is Rapid Response.

[THEME MUSIC]

SAFIAN: I’m Bob Safian. I’m here with Cassie Ho, the founder, CEO, and lead designer of Workout brands, Blogilates, and POPFLEX. It’s great to have you with us here.

HO: Thanks for having me.

SAFIAN: You’ve built a terrific business using social media platforms as fuel — YouTube, initially, now masses of followers everywhere. Do you think of yourself as an influencer? Like, what does that word mean to you? 

HO: To be completely honest, the moment the word influencer came to be, I was very turned off by it because it sounds like such a vapid term. Like, what are you influencing? It doesn’t really give much , so I prefer to call myself an entrepreneur, a content creator, but yeah, I just don’t like the word influencer. Now to explain to some people what I do, and like one word like that kind of says it, but it doesn’t encapsulate everything that I do.

SAFIAN: No, the creator label seems to be more what folks like you are gravitating to. So, I want to start by asking you about TikTok. DC folks right now are making noise about banning the platform, even though millions of users are devoted to it. How have you thought about and used TikTok in your business?

HO: So TikTok is one of the platforms that I post on. I post on TikTok, IG, YouTube Shorts, I create, design videos, and I take my followers kind of through the design journey, like, here’s a problem I need to solve, and here is how I did that and by the end of the 60 second video, you see the product that I ended up with. Now these things take, you know, anywhere between 12 months to a couple of years of development, all compressed into a 60-second video.

And a lot of times these videos go super viral on certain platforms, sometimes on all three platforms. And so that’s how I use the platforms to market my products. So when it comes to the TikTok ban, my eggs aren’t all in one basket. Of course, it’s going to be sad to possibly lose one of them, but I don’t know what’s going to actually happen.

SAFIAN: I know. I mean, is it frustrating? I mean, you spend some effort, some time to build up a following on that platform, and you’ve got a large one, right? 

SAFIAN: Yeah, I think there’s like 3. 5 million just on that.

Copy LinkHow Cassey Ho handles the social media game

HO: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a hefty group of people, potential customers, you know, and. And that might just go away.

I mean, to be completely honest, the whole social media game has been, I just need to play the new game with the changing rules. And you don’t know what the game is. And already just with the algorithm changing every week, there are some times when I am on TikTok and my videos will get tons of crazy views, like 25 million views, so that, you know, I get 600, 000 clicks over to a product and sell it within like a few hours.

And then there was a time. When I posted a video that, and I spent like nine to ten hours editing, voiceover, writing, like all of these things, filming, and you put up this video that you put so much work into. And I remember that video getting literally 12 views. Now this is 3.5 million followers. And I was like, what’s going on?

So I reached out to TikTok and they’re like, Oh, well, pretty much, maybe you should just make better content. I’m just like, no, no, no. This is something else. And so this has actually happened a few different times, and I don’t know what it is. I’ll have to delete the video, put it up again. So, these glitches have already honestly felt like what a TikTok ban would have felt like.

And I actually even went into the Reddit forum and was kind of like, why is this video getting 12 views? In the Reddit forum it said, do not say YouTube, Instagram, or anything in your videos, or you’ll get shadowbanned.

And like, the crazy thing is, I took off my video, removed YouTube, and wrote YT, and that video ended up going viral. So there is something going on that is fishy and weird, and I never know what the new rules are, whatever happens is going to happen, and we’re going to have to deal with it.

SAFIAN: And, but that way, if you’re posting the same thing on multiple platforms, you don’t necessarily know which one sort of led to more of your business, right? I mean, obviously you’ll know how many views you got, but not necessarily that it drove more activity, or, can you tell?

HO: You can, actually, break it down by platform. And I can actually tell that the conversion rate is actually higher on Instagram reels compared to TikTok. 

When TikTok goes viral, it can go crazy, but you can’t rely on it because, right, you’re going to get 12 views and get 25 million views or whatever. You maybe land somewhere in between with like 50k and you barely get any sales.

So, I would say Instagram Reels probably, within the past year, has been a lot more consistent and is doing better for me right now than TikTok.

SAFIAN: But you’re not necessarily sure why all the time. You’re just having to jump and experiment at different times.

HO: And it’s incredibly frustrating, and I have to be so transparent in saying that it plays with me emotionally as well because I’m someone who thinks that I can put in a lot of hard work and get the reward out of it. Right? Like get the sales or get the views, but sometimes with the algorithm changing, you don’t know why your video just isn’t doing well.

And for my personality type, which is like, I am a super perfectionist. It really affects my self-worth, and I actually talked to a lot of creators about this. And there are times that we go through, you know, the social media career, and there are certain weeks throughout the year when the algorithm is doing bad for everyone, and everyone’s just really sad.

And we all think it’s going to be the end of our careers, and we’re going to be irrelevant. So these are very normal conversations that happen, I think a couple or a few times a year, but then the algorithm changes and you’re back to normal. And it’s just a game.

SAFIAN: And you’re not worried that if TikTok went away, you’d be irrelevant because there are enough other options for you to interact with folks through?

HO: I know TikTok has been really fun. I know we’ve been able to grow, and so some people have been able to, like really thrive their businesses on TikTok but you also need to take that same energy to Instagram reels, to YouTube shorts, like it’s there.

Like, should something happen to a TikTok, post that same video.

SAFIAN: You mentioned this, you started as a content provider on YouTube, workout videos on YouTube, and expanded into products. Why? Like, is, is that a better business than just media?

Copy LinkGetting started on YouTube

HO: So I think I’m a lot different than many content creators because that was never the plan, and the plan for me as a kid was that I always wanted to be a fashion designer. I’m talking about how I carried around a sketchbook when I was six years old and would draw all the time. Then I ended up designing dresses for prom for my friends and making dresses for my Barbies.

And so it was always there. I started on YouTube in 2009 as a way to connect with my real-life pilates students, and the video is only supposed to be for 40 people. I was moving cross-country. And so they’re like, Who else is going to teach this format to us? I was teaching pop Pilates, which is Pilates with pop music.

Nobody was doing that at the time, where I was, in LA. And so I made that video just for them. And then the next thing I saw was that there were thousands of views and hundreds of comments from people that were not my students asking for it. Well, do an arm version, do an ab version, and do a butt version.

And so, so that is how Blogilates started, like, as a fitness YouTube channel. And in the background, I had always been making things. I was designing yoga bags. I did this water bottle that had a time stamp on it, and one month we sold like 30, 000 units of it.

So it was always there, but it wasn’t until like 2016, when I was able to launch POPFLEX, which is our DTC higher and activewear brand, that I really got to exercise what I always wanted to do in fashion design. But yeah, it’s been a complete evolution from when I first started.

Copy LinkWhy Cassey Ho started a second brand

SAFIAN: And I’m curious, so you had Blogilates as a brand, and you chose to launch a second brand. Why did you feel like you needed a second brand? Why did you keep the first one when you were making that transition?

HO: I didn’t want to wear my own screen name on my clothes. That’s just a me thing. I think most people would have just kept it, but it was a great decision because POPFLEX now our more, I wouldn’t say high-end, but higher end brand when compared to Blogilates, which you can now find at Target.

So it’s more of an approachable price point. And then POPFLEX is where I just like, go crazy with innovation and quality fabrics, and I just like designing to my heart’s content.

SAFIAN: So let me ask you, how did you get connected to Target? Like how did that happen?

HO: My husband and I were on vacation in Thailand, and we got a call from our licensing agent and they’re like, we have this opportunity, something, Target. And I was like, what, what, like, how? And we actually got on the call in Thailand to talk more about this.

And then, as soon as we got back to the States, we took a red eye all the way over, to like, near the target headquarters. And we had a meeting and presented to the buyer and it was a tough meeting. I didn’t know if they liked it or not, but eventually, we got the purchase order 

But it was a test at first. We made some products, and they were going to test us for four to six weeks, but everything sold out within, like, two weeks. It went absolutely wild. And so that’s how that relationship started. And because it’s been quite successful, we’re still there. And it’s still a dream to walk into Target and see that.

Copy LinkThe importance of raw and honest branding

SAFIAN: For those listening to this whose brands haven’t been built on social platforms, what do you think a lot of brands and businesses miss when they’re trying to engage? It can often seem like just a crowded, noisy space.

And I think that scares some folks away.

HO: Yeah, I think what makes a brand really special, especially these days, is having a face you can connect to a humaness. Yeah, I think marketing has really changed over the past few years, and people love the real, they love the raw, they love seeing real customer bodies on the clothes, and they really just want you in there talking with them. 

I think talking about the journey of building the brand, building the business, showing yourself, shipping the packages, right?

These are things people want to see that’s real. That it’s coming from a hand. I think the more humanity you can bring to the brand, the better. And also talking about your failures as well. Sometimes, I’ll put up videos showing what I call my bad samples, designs that died, or things that just didn’t make it through.

Cause it was so horrendous, and I had to give up. And that’s fun too, because you’ve really got to show all the parts of yourself. If you really want an honest and raw relationship with your audience.

SAFIAN: Raw and honest — it’s an imperative that’s increasingly embraced across the business landscape. And it seems likely to persist whether TikTok stays or goes. After the break, Cassey shares how she competes for followers against other brands, her battles with a toxic situation that forced her to remake her team, and more. We’ll be right back.

[AD BREAK]

SAFIAN: Before the break, we heard social media entrepreneur and designer Cassey Ho talk about the pros and cons of TikTok and how she built an audience of 17 million social followers. Now she talks about the ruthless competition among digital brands, balancing product vision with audience feedback, what it’s like to work alongside her husband, and more. Let’s jump back in.

Cassey, social media has made it easier for someone like you to build a business — but social also makes it easier for new brands to come along too. How do you think about the competitive landscape? 

HO: Back during pandemic times, all of these athleisure brands were popping up because everybody was working out at home.

And I remember telling my husband, and I keep referencing him because he’s also the COO of our company. And we talk about work all the time. It just never stops. But I was like, there is going to be a day when we all cannot exist. Like you just said, you can’t have this many activewear brands if you’re not selling something different.

We’ve seen brands already start to die out, and I’m not just talking about the Instagram ones. Like, when Beyonce’s Ivy Park had to shut down.

I’m talking about big brands with big financial backing. And so, in order to stand out in the market, you really need to be doing something different. That’s why I don’t design anything unless I’m making a difference with the design.

SAFIAN: Do you know what gave you the confidence to sort of quit your day job and do Blogilates full-time? Like, is there a story around that, about how you made that, that decision?

HO: So in 2009, I put up my first YouTube video, and it was never meant to be anything. There was no like ad campaigns or making any money off of that. It was just really for connection, right? Okay. So then I get my first job on the East Coast. I’m getting into fashion buying, and I absolutely hate my job, but during this time, I actually was designing a yoga bag for myself. 

I’d bring it to class, and my students are like, what’s that?

Like, I want one of those. And so I made some and ended up putting it on like a tiny little website that I made by myself. And then I also shipped out three bags to magazines like Women’s Health, Shape Magazine, Fitness Magazine. 

And then one day, my sister texts me a picture, and she’s like, is that your bag in shape magazine? And I was like, excuse me, what? So I run out to the nearest Target during lunch, and I flip through the shape magazine, and I’m like, Oh my God, like this is a sign, 

I’m hating my job and my bag that I designed just made it into a national magazine. I took that as a sign that, hey, you can do this. And so what I did was I ended up quitting my job.

Probably within like the next couple weeks, and then I bought a ticket to China on a Friday, and I left on Sunday because I said if I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna go hard. So I went to China to go to the Canton Fair to find a manufacturer, and I know I look Chinese and Chinese Vietnamese that’s what I actually am.

But I don’t actually speak Chinese, so I had to get an interpreter and really figure things out. I was probably like 22 or something, but I just went for it. And that was the moment that I decided to make designing my, like, real thing now in terms of content creation. That’s a different story, right? The moment that I knew that there was something more here actually led back to the product. So, this is probably around 2011 or something like that and the YouTube channel was growing a lot.

I might have been around, like, I don’t know maybe 200, 000, 100, 000. I don’t know. I definitely wasn’t even at a million yet. So anyway, the fans on Facebook were like, Cassey, can you make a shirt?

Something that says Blogilates. That was the moment I realized, oh my gosh, okay, Blogilates is now a brand. 

And it sold out within, like, minutes; it was crazy.

Copy LinkFinding the right people to support your growth. 

SAFIAN: As your business has grown. What’s the biggest challenge? What’s the biggest struggle?

HO: Yeah, I mean, the biggest struggles, will always be finding the right people to support your growth. 

My mistake back in you know the what was it like the 2016, 17, 18, when I was young and trying to figure out how to be a manager, I was hiring people mostly for their skill and their talent and not thinking about the way we could really work together and communicate.

And so there was a lot of bad stuff that went down there. And when I say bad stuff, I just mean like, a lack of appreciation. I would walk into the office with my body, like, actually shaking. My breathing was abnormal. My heartbeat was abnormal. It just, wasn’t the right people. And when you’re not around the right people, they suck the energy out of you, and you feel like you’re not capable of anything.

And in 2018, I almost wanted to quit everything. And there’s something magical that happens when you’re really at that breaking point, but you just try one more time, really hard.

And it makes you so much stronger. Some people left, and some people got let go. I mean, that’s what it is. And look, it’s like any relationship, right? If it’s not working out, it’s not working out, and we just need to end this chapter, and we both need a fresh start.

SAFIAN: A lot of businesses start with co-founders, not necessarily spouses/

HO: Yeah.

SAFIAN: What should people think about if they’re considering sort of blurring the lines between their business life and their personal life the way you’ve chosen to do it?

HO: I am very fortunate that Sam and I are both good at different things, very different things, and bad at very different things. So there is this natural divide between who’s gonna do what. I’m more of the creative, the visionary, the design side, and the marketing. And Sam loves numbers. He loves analytics and all that kind of stuff.

And because of that, when we do get in any fights, we have to remember whose arena this is, and we let that person win.

SAFIAN: And you try not to bring it home, or is it just home all the time?

HO: Oh, it’s home all the time because we’re remote. So we work from home and, like, you know, we’ll eat lunch or dinner and still talk about what happened at work.

There was a time when we were like, okay, definitely, no talking about work after a certain time, but it just felt so unnatural.

And anyway, this is the season that we’re in the season of growth. And in order to keep that growth, like, you know, sustained, I guess we’re just working all the time. Anyway, what else would we be doing if we’re not working?

Well, I guess we could go on that vacation.

SAFIAN: Well, I hope you do that too. Cassey, this was great. Thank, thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

HO: Thank you, Bob. This is fun.

SAFIAN: What I take away from listening to Cassey is how much the wild-west nature of social-based businesses reflects heightened competition everywhere. Social media has upended traditional customer engagement, but then social media itself has been upended over and over — by Instagram, by Snapchat, by Tiktok, and so on. TikTok’s fate from here is a geopolitical one at this point. Even for someone with 3.5 million followers there, looking at that audience as a defining asset is risky. The overarching lesson is that while a platform can be super-impactful in accelerating a business, becoming reliant on one can make you vulnerable. Take the good, avoid the bad, and stay on your toes. I’m Bob Safian, thanks for listening.